Caray, Caray!

Muy interesante,
Tks UA.
 

You're welcome.

Going out for a while; see you guys later.
 

Thanks, UA for a really fascinating topic and analysis. You always come up with the best topics!

Jarifa
 

Thanks UA for another great topic.

It's comical that Octavio currently is the highest paid character since he has been avoiding his job until recently.
 

Interesting comparison. I concentrated on the median figures for Mexico and US (they compare pretty consistently with Mexico City and NYC).

It was a revelation, but, now I know why Mexicans cross the border in droves to buy their jeans, 1 summer dress and a pair of Nike shoes. They would buy their phone cards here, too, but they probably won't work in Mexico. Of course they can't take advantage of our very low mortgage rates, either.

And it is obvio why so many financially-strapped gringos head south of the border to retire. Everything is cheaper in Mexico--especially transportation and gasoline.

Alma, however, would find the difference between the monthly fee for the fitness club insignificant between the DF & NYC.

And no wonder Royer-Boy needed a stake to do the U.S. Tennis circuit.

Jorge Alfredo is doing pretty well for housing on his pay (I don't think he's on salary--they'd have to take out for taxes and health insurance and social security--ooops, maybe not there.) Bruno did make some disparaging remarks about his place and JA agreed with him, but Maria cleaned it thoroughly and fixed it up real nice. He has furniture now and tchotchkes on the shelves and things on the walls and he doesn't have to clean his own bathroom.

No doubt, the price of water in Mexico will sooner or later break the gringos' savings accounts, because they can't drink tap water. Here, it's mostly a matter of choice. My choice is and has been our wonderful Potomac River tap water. (Hey it's the capital of the nation; 'cmon, it HAS to be good.)

Anita
(Who's watching QBA, AV, PEAM and trying *not* to watch CI.)

 

I can't survive without a Brita pitcher because there is too much chlorine in the tap water in my building.

Is Mexican tap water safe if you boil it and cool it first?
 

"Is Mexican tap water safe if you boil it and cool it first?"

We used to do that when I was little and we lived in a small town but since we moved to Veracruz when I was 8 we started buying bottled water. The most common thing here is to buy those 20 litre bottles that you see in water coolers for any water one would ingest at hom. I've made soup with tap water in DF just to save money on water now that I'm living by myself and haven't gotten sick but I do have bottled water to drink.

That list for the cost of living is pretty accurate UA, at least in the Mexico City side. Thanks for gathering the info. I would only put the rent costs and taxi fares a bit higher. I'm trying to find an appartment closer to the centre right now to move with a roomate and the prices are giving us a headache.

Jarocha
 

Hi Jarocha. I always enjoy it when you join us.

UA, when I signed up at Caray Caray a few years ago, Melinama assured me that there'd be no math. And now... behold...

But your question (and Jarocha's presence) prompted me to join in.

"Is Mexican tap water safe if you boil it and cool it first?"

I can state from a biological standpoint an unequivocal Yes. As for chemicals, heavy metals and such, I would trust that the processing of the tapwater has made it safe from that standpoint.

Are you guys aware that a lot of commercial bottled water (even some labeled as spring water) is derived from municipal water supplies?

Jarocha, since you're here, may I ask a question that came up some time back in regard to Amores Verdaderos?

Jean Marie said:

"Estaba trabajando como un negro toda la noche."

How is this type of statement viewed in Mexico? It created a mini firestorm within our study group triggered by an anon.

Sorry UA, I hope this isn't a buzzkill.

Carlos
 

Hi High Finance Study Group,
I find the prices pretty low but then they are from 2005. I know that Oaxaca rents are pretty high and real estate when from very reasonable to very not in the last two or three years since so many gringos want to leave the states and stretch their retirement funds.

The one income number from the first sight didn't indicate if it required higher or any education or special skills so doesn't seem to meaningful.

In Oaxaca, health care has a nice price break and the hospitals are filled with highly skilled medical personnel and new equipment. I have friends here in Albuquerque though that swear by the plastic surgeons in Ecuador so I guess it pays to shop around depending on the procedure you want. And everyone seems to go across the border for dental care. My wonderful dentist here is of Mexican descent and I have the highest regard for his skill and gentle manner with patients. He and I always discuss Costa Rica where I like to photograph birds and he prefers to go fishing every year.
 

Hi Carlos, you might have convinced me to save some money by boiling water for a drink. Maybe.

About that saying, it's a very old saying that continues to be used today to refer having worked very hard; it makes a reference, as most would guess, to the times of slavery. People don't mean to belittle anyone with it but I don't think they are aware on the power of those words and how they may come across.

Mexicans don't have the same history that the US has and our social, racial and cultural composition is different. There hasn't been a group of Mexican citizens speaking out about how some terms or sayings or behaviors are offensive to them so most people believe you are only being offensive if you are meaning to offend.

There is therefore a lack of understanding on why words alone can hurt and a need for those words and expressions to be pointed out so people can understand why they are being hurtful. I think this is just starting to happen with our LGBT population, that they are beginning to form groups to point out slurs and homophobic attitudes and sayings but it's still all very new, nobody else has spoken up about what hurts them or offends them in our everyday expressions. Not even indigenous groups, who have been around longer.

There's also a saying that goes:

"No hay moros en la costa"

"There are no Moors in the coast". It means that the coast is clear, there's no danger. It's a reference to the time the Moors invaded Spain. It does not mean that Mexicans believe Muslims are dangerous or our enemies but someone from Morocco could be offended by it today, especially considering that the term "Moro" has become a derogative term for Muslims in Spain (which most Latin Americans know nothing about).

I bet if we started to analyze all these typical sayings we’d find several offensive ones, unfortunately.

Jarocha
 

Jarocha,

"...most people believe you are only being offensive if you are meaning to offend."

What a concept.

Many many years ago, the Lovely Linda and I traveled to Puerto Vallarta and stayed in a very nice hotel on the beach. We were cautioned to drink only the bottled water provided in the rooms. We came into the room one afternoon while the staff was cleaning the room. There in the bathroom was one of the maids filling the water bottle... from the tap.

Nonetheless we had a fantastic time.

I pretty much fear no water that you can see through.

Carlos
 

Carlos—"I pretty much fear no water that you can see through." You crack me up, spoken like a true doctor. Reminds me of the time (here in Jersey City, a place known for corruption and mismanagement of the public trust) when, unbeknownst to me a water main had broken, and the tap water came out a sort of muddy, rusty brown. I immediately called the water dept and asked the guy "This water is brown, is it safe to drink?" To which he replied: "If I told'ya it was, would'ya?"

My sister-in-law (from Moscow) lived here for six years and boiled the water for everything they ate. She had grown up that way and wasn't about to change. She's back in Moscow now, no doubt still boiling their water.

Jarocha—Thanks for this: "...most people believe you are only being offensive if you are meaning to offend." In the US, we are almost crippled by political correctness. It's not a bad thing to have our collective consciousness raised so as to acknowledge & respect differences, but I'm not sure we gain by censoring flamboyant expression or even historical allusion. That said, language does evolve as fast as a virus for better or worse along with its culture.

UA—thanks for the chart. I know a bunch of folks my age who are planning to exit the US for one of the gringo enclaves south of the border. I would love to live in Mexico, but not with a bunch of aged yanquis. I'm interested in seeing how these figures will change as more and more boomers retire.
 

Years ago, I had a student who was a Mexican doctor who cautioned me not to drink the water if I went to Mexico CIty or buy food from street vendors, but he told me that his AMerican wife did so. As for the water , Hub shakes his head in dismay as he watches tanker trucks from a water bottling company transport water from springs they bought north of us. WIth so much of our rural area being developed, we are starting to worry about our water supply even though a neighbor told us that an underground river flows beneath our property. As for our southern neighbors crossing the border for deals, the same is true of our northern neighbors. When we went to TOronto to spend Easter with our daughter, there was no line at the border entering Canada but a two hour wait for the long line headed south into the U.S. THe border guard told us iCanadians were all headed to sales in the U.S. Also, gas is cheaper here than in Canada where it's sold by the liter.
 

LXV~~~Our daughter lived in Hoboken and Manhattan for a couple years. Yay, Jersey City. ...She had her tonsils out there !!!!
 

Susanlynn, Jersey City ain't what it used to be, but we just elected a "progressive" mayor. Let's see what he can do. Don't get me wrong, I love this place, but it has its challenges.

Once, after another water main break that we knew nothing about, my husband and I both got sick. We only found out a couple of days later when we rose from the dead and saw notifications all over the light poles.

And once my husband made the mistake of eating at one of those taco trucks parked along the interstate in New Haven on his way up to our place in RI. By the time he arrived, he had one wicked case of it. I had to take him to the EW and they gave him IV fluids and antibiotics for a couple of hours. But, every time we pass those trucks, he tells me how delicious the taco was.

I think the decaying infrastructure in the NorthEast and the rapid development south of the border pose parallel problems for human habitation. We've had it pretty good for a long time, but between the age of the systems and the governmental corruption that impedes major repairs, we might as well be the Third World over here.
 

LVX...We haven't been in your neck of the woods since our daughter moved to Toronto about five years ago. She used to take business trips into Manhattan, but none us have been to the other side of the Hudson in a while. I don't think she'd return to live there. I see some parts of the area on tv shows like Jerseylicious and Kitchen Cousins.
 

Carlos: Some hotels in Mexico can provide their own filtered water, hopefully that was the case with yours.

I'd gladly drink water from the tap if it was deemed safe to do so, I know many people don't get sick but there's always the threat of parasites.

I think we'd be able to combat childhood obessity if schools could offer safe, free, drinkin water for those thirsty kids that have been running around during recess. Instead, they have to buy their drinks and they usually choose a can or bottle of soda (most times Coca-Cola) that costs the same as a bottle of water.

On the other hand, I'm used to street food. It's not a weekly occurrance but I have certain places I tend to go when I'm craving some "antojitos" or birria. I think it is so common to eat on the street here that one can get recommendations about which places are good and safe. Besides, one can't go to Mexico City and not enjoy some of its street food.

Jarocha
 

Does one develop resistance over time, or is it just a matter of luck? There's a whole range of scary things from Campyolobacter to Cholera. I've had gastroenteritis and it's exhausting. I think the US is not terribly susceptible to these debilitating and potentially life-threatening conditions. But as the economy continues to fail, it could get worse. I hate drinking bottled water. We filter our household tap water through two different whole house filters and a final third one for a special tap in the kitchen that we use for drinking water. It's a lot cheaper than buying bottled. But if the water mains break, a couple times a year, we have to replace all the filters at once. It can get pricey. I once knew an old sailor who picked up dysentery somewhere in the Far East back in the '20s. He lived with it for years and was very skinny.
 

Wow, thanks for doing this great analysis! I know sometimes even in US shows, the numbers they throw around don't make a lot of sense, but at least I have some baseline for comparison when I see them.

So if US$486 is reasonable for a secretario in Mexico, then a severance of 10,000 pesos would be about 2 weeks' salary, which actually seems pretty reasonable. I wondered why they gave Chucho (Jesus) such a ginormous check, but I guess it's not outrageous.
 

Drinking and eating and getting sick in Mexico, oh boy, the stories I could tell. I got sick once from brushing my teeth at a large modern hotel in Chihuahua; the water was clear as could be but what a rough night I had of the runs and barfing. We had left the hotel and were camping and at night the place was "guarded" by an old man wrapped in a serape and holding a machete. I had to go past him for every trip (and there were lots of trips) and all I could see were his eyes and the machete gleaming in the dark. He felt really sorry for me. Everybody drinks the tap water in Queretaro. Never trust bottled water if the seal is broken. Restaurants will pull that stunt, too. Nowadays, the nicer hotels will have whole building filter systems, but I kind of miss the old glass bottles on the tippy metal stands they used to have in the hallways for you to get your own drinking water from. I’ve read that the tap water is all treated and leaves the treatment plants just fine, but it gets contaminated on the way to the taps.

I’ve developed quite the iron gut in all my travels, but I had to get through a lot of sickness to get there. Now I eat street food, but I take a good look at who’s cooking, how they are handling the food, and how busy they are (busy is better, the food isn’t sitting around). Remember being horrified by a street food stall in Oaxaca where the two women running it had a bunch of little kiddos under their feet, none were wearing diapers, just long tee shirts and pooping where they pleased. Moms were handling and supervising kids while cooking. No running water at the food stall and had no way to wash their hands that I could see. We didn’t eat there.

The last time I got sick was from some pineapple that had been kept on a block of ice, not made from purified water, obvio. It was wrapped in plastic, but still got contaminated. I couldn’t see where it had come from, but just deduced after the fact. Otherwise, I wouldn’t have bought it. Had a really rough night, but, man, that pineapple was delicious. You pays your pesos and you takes your chances. :)

 

I find numbers interesting, but descriptions are more real to me. I once read an article in the LA Times that described how families lived within the categories of poverty in Mexico and it created such a vivid impression for me, it has stuck with me for years. Since I couldn’t find the article, I’ll go by memory:

Extreme Poverty– (~10%) not enough food, unemployed, possibly homeless or living in an encampment or shanty town, limited utilities like electricity or running water, cooking on a wood fire or single burner, little or no furniture, children do not attend school regularly and not beyond elementary school, adults generally lack literacy and any job skills.

Poverty – (~40-50%) not enough food at times, irregular employment or self employed, living in a simple structure without screens or glass windows, probably have cooking appliances and some furniture, children attend elementary school, adults may have some literacy and few or no job skills.

Middle Class – (~30-40%) basic food available, steady employment, live in a cinderblock home or other permanent structure with windows and screens, furniture and some basic appliances such as stoves, refrigerators and tvs in the house, walls may be painted and some decorative items in the house, children attend school through junior high and perhaps graduate high school. Adults usually have at least basic literacy and may have job skills and employment in trades or a family owned business such as a small restaurant or shop.

Wealthy – (~10%) everything else.

While looking for that article, I did find these that were interesting:

“The number of Mexicans living in poverty grew to 52 million in 2010, up by more than 3 million people from two years earlier, the report says. That means 46.2% of the population lives in poverty.

“Within that group, 11.7 million people live in extreme poverty ..."

Source: http://articles.latimes.com/2011/jul/29/world/la-fg-mexico-poverty-20110730

“Unfortunately, only 10 percent of Mexicans are wealthy. Another 30 percent are middle class. Fully 60 percent of Mexicans are poor ...

“Health care is substantially free for all Mexican citizens ... Mexicans who are not in the formal labor force are able to receive medical care from a number of different governmental agencies. Yet the reality is that receiving health care from a nurse in a rural clinic is quite different from receiving health care from an expensive specialist in the United States, an option often exercised by the wealthy in Mexico.

“ … public schools in Mexico have significant problems. The quality of instruction is low, the bureaucracy is ineffective, and students do not stay in school (only 60 percent of Mexican children complete primary school) … in the rural villages the state may not provide education beyond the sixth grade.

“The housing situation in Mexico also provides a dramatic illustration of the disparity between rich and poor in the country ... In the community of Netzahual-coyotl, on the eastern outskirts of Mexico City, over 1,000,000 lower-class Mexicans live in single-room brick structures erected on land that floods when it rains. They have few public services. By contrast, the elite western suburbs of Mexico City allow the wealthy to live with all of the amenities of modern life.

“In the modern era, persistent poverty has been one of the abiding problems of the Mexican economy. The economy has few safety nets; there is no unemployment compensation and the poor do not receive welfare payments … While education is the ticket to upward social mobility in Mexico, it is not at all clear that the state is providing educational opportunities for the poor.”

Source: http://www.nationsencyclopedia.com/economies/Americas/Mexico-POVERTY-AND-WEALTH.html
 

Carolina: Thank you for those articles, the numbers in the second one are odd but the 46.2% matches the findings of CONEVAL (Consejo Nacional de Evaluación de la Política de Desarrollo Social) , so I think that's where they were taken from and I'm more familiar with those.

According to CONEVAL 46.2% Mexicans live in poverty today. The crisis of 2008 left 3 million more in poverty but before that Mexico managed to lower the numbers in a wonderful way from 1996, when poverty reached 70% of the population.

Hopefully now that the economy has stabilized we can be able to continue our path in poverty reduction. There is a projection right now in the World Bank for 2030 where poverty is expected to be reduced to somewhere in between 15% to 17% of the population. Hopefully even lower levels can be reached.

Jarocha
 

Carolina, when I think of Neza, it breaks my heart to remember it was named for the great poet king of the Triple Alliance at the height of Aztec glory. A seat of learning and art. It's nothing but an enormous garbage dump now, riddled with crime. Here is a short photo essay. Thanks for your breakdown of the degrees of poverty. I daresay the middle class in Mexico would be considered poor in the US. This is something the telenovelas just don't show.
 

Jarocha, Yes, I think the numbers from the second source are perhaps out of date. And thank you for pointing out what I forgot to, that Mexico has made good progress in recent decades in reducing poverty and improvements for ordinary people in many other areas. I've been traveling in Mexico pretty frequently since the late 70s (and lived there a couple of times short term) and the changes I have seen are remarkable. Just in the last 12 years, there has been impressive progress.

LXV, I agree completely. I think that is why that LA Times article had such an impact on me; it helped me see much more clearly what the reality was for so many Mexicans. Understanding what is poverty in Mexico and what is middle class puts poverty in the US in a completely different light. One of the many benefits of international travel. :) Then I started to travel in Central America and had my eyes opened yet again. The differences between someplace like Nicaragua and Mexico (except maybe the southern states) are monumental.

As for TNs not showing this, I haven't seen you in the QBA threads (because why not?), but for all of its ridiculousness, I think it is actually being somewhat realistic in showing what middle class homes look like and filming scenes in little hole in the wall fondas and taquieras. Not everything is all fakey nice nice, or at least less so than what I've seen in my limited experience with TNs. The heroine's family is middle class by the definitions above, but has huge, real financial problems and is in danger of slipping downward. I have suggested that one of the themes of QBA is that of the gap between the haves and the have nots, and going up and down the economic scale.
 

One small detail that I like about QBA is that the girls go to school in uniforms that actually look like real Mexican school uniforms. Most novelas act like Mexican schools are simmilar to the US in that everybody goes with their own clothes or they use stylish designs that aren't at all what you'd see in a school here.

I've only seen two private schools in DF where the students use their own clothes and those are some of the two most expensive ones in the country. No way would middle class kids like Kevin and Jennifer from PESE would go to one of those. And kid Damián from LFDD would have gone to a public school with the mandatory uniform.

I don't know why this bothers me so much but it does. School uniforms are mandatory to avoid class distinction at school and most private schools also choose to do this. Schools pick their designs using the fabrics that were previously chosen by their cheaper price and special stores make the uniforms so that kids can buy them for good prices, even for some private schools. If novelas are so worried about showing how much class distinction affects the everyday of Mexican citizens then they should portray that in such a small detail as that one. Of course, as someone who went to public schools I could tell who had the money to buy an uniform and who needed to have it made by their mother or grandma, or who could buy three uniforms to have clean ones everyday instead of using the same one all week, so there is still a divide as much as they may try to stop it.

Jarocha
 

Oh, Jarocha, I remember so well having to keep my uniform blouse clean so I could wear it all week (then having to launder it along with all the rest of my family's clothes on the weekend). This was in the '50s and I went to Catholic school, but there were 10 kids and we worked hard because mom was always having another baby. The public schools in the inner city now all wear uniforms. I was told the reason had to do with discouraging gang colors rather than minimizing class distinctions: another form of social control. But you are right; I ended up in public high school and the wardrobe issue was painful for someone like me who could not afford what the cool kids were wearing.

Carolina, I am not watching QBA because I can only manage one TN and right now I am following El Señor de los Cielos over on Telemundo. But next week I won't have any TV til fall because I'm going away to take care of my mom for a while. I hope I can pick up the episodes I miss somewhere later. It's a gripping story with enough basis in fact to keep me interested. I may check out an episode of QBA just to get a glimpse of what you're talking about.
 

I teach people from all over the world and have discovered that the U.S. is one of the only counties that does not require students in public schools to wear uniforms.. i have taught in a senior high school. Uniforms would eliminate so many problems in American schools, IMHO
 

LXV, totaly understand about only watching one TN. It's all I have time for, too. I don't know if you know about this site or if you'll have internet access, but it could help you this summer: http://www.youtube.com/user/telemundotv/videos?view=0

Jarocha, I hadn't picked up on that detail, but they do seem to be getting more of the little things right than you normally see. Now some of the big things ... that's another story!

Hi susanlynn. I've worked in ESL for a long time too. And I have learned so much about the world from my students.
 

Thanks for the link Carolina. I usually have to go to the local library for internet during the summer, but it's always a busy time, so my normally limited TV watching dwindles away to no TV watching. Maybe I'll try to get hold of some disks later. I don't know how long the show will run, but it's fascinating in that much is based on facts about real people.