Caray, Caray!

Pelafustan: a social nobody; a lazy good-for-nothing;
 

Wow Urban. I loved all the detailed conversations you gave us. I could not believe how honest and clear about his feeling Ivan was being. I forgot I was watching a tn for a bit. He IS very good at the fancy love words, isn't he? But, he should keep in mind how serious Lucia was being when she said, "Don't play, Ivan." If he wants to keep her, he's going to have to keep being honest and above board.

Antolin continues to fascinate. He's refusing to admit he knew Ivan from before. I'm actually surprised Saul was aware enough to remember how Antolin easily referred to Ivan by first name in the middle of the restaurant brawl. And now that Judith has 100% confirmation, how long before JJ learns who Ivan really is?

I have a feeling Lucia is about to get a "reputation." First dating Saul, then being seen with Ivan (and going to his house), and I'm sure someone will see her going to David's apartment.

Tonight looks like Maripaz confides in Antolin. Why? Where will that lead?
 

Kind of funny Lucrezia calling Carlota Lucia's pimp, when she pimped out both her daughters to the Mondragon's and is trying to pimp her mom out to Tony.
As for the other insults, most insults are associated with being poor, even look at our own language (white trash). In truth, there is nothing shameful in being poor, but we know that's not how most cultures see it. So "muerta de hambre" takes its place amongst a myriad other insults that derive their origins from ridiculing the poor.
 

UrbanA: Finally had a chance to read it now. Great stuff! MP is definitely delusional. Loved the way Carmen shoveled the sass right back at her, too, instead of bowing her head and groveling.
 

Mosca muerta:
Implies that someone appears to be completely innocent and pure, but is not. Hypocrite/fake/phony.

The English equivalent would be, "butter wouldn't melt in his/her mouth."
 

Tks UA

This is what word magic says about mosca muerta

mos·ca muer·ta No Gender - Noun - Singular

Plural: moscas muertas

hypocrite; Synonyms: disimulador, fariseo, hipócrita, hombre de dos caras, moscamuerta, mosquita muerta; Persona que parece tímida, de poco carácter, genio o ánimo, pero que aprovecha cualquier ocasión para obtener beneficio.

Here we are on capitulo 21 & we haven't even seen a priest yet, could this be a 1st?

JJ is an asshole but I sure don't mind seeing him slap Saul around.

Variopinta
 

Urban, what a detailed and wonderful recap. Thanks also for the vocabulary help.
Alcahueta-definitely not in my little Spanish textbooks-go figure.
ITA, Vivi, Lucia was very serious when she said "don't play with me" to Ivan, one of her eyebrows went up ever so slightly.
I don't understand Lucrecia and JJ's insistence that their kids marry each other-not seeing the situational advantage there.
Lucia and Maripaz have different fathers?
 

Thanks for the recap UA. Vario, I was also thinking about the no priest thing. I guess they decided to be a little different and it's ok. One thing they all need to know and understand is that Ivan is much much superior to all of them now that he has the rices and power beyond what they have. He and Tony will be loaning them money to help them out. So if anything, Ivan could be the one looking down on them.

If David was kicked out of the house and his credit cards were cancelled, how did he get an apartment at the university? Speaking of David, I agree a lot with what UA said that him seeing Lucia as a shrink is so wrong on so many levels. She should have referred him to a colleague.

I'm liking the fact that MAripaz is defying Lucrezia. Lucrezia can't stand it that she cannot control her 2 daughters anymore.

Antolin is shaping up to be an opportunist with a soft spot for Carolina. He is an opportunist because he looks like he does not mind Ivan and Saul kill each other and he will side with the winner which could mean big bucks for him. (plus he has his own ulterior motives) But he will do anything to protect Carolina. So far he is genuinely and sincerely nice to her.


Ibarramedia
 

Emarie, Lucia and Maripaz have the same father.

In their way of thinking, JJ and Lucrezia believe that the marriage of their children will increase their wealth even though both ranches are not doing so well at the moment. With that line of thought, their grand children expect to inherit both ranches, thus more money.


Ibarramedia
 

Emarie- Maripaz and Lucia have the same father- Gerry.

JJ thinks that if his sons marry Lucrezia's daughters, he will get his hands on their lands (which have good water access). Lucrezia thinks that by marrying her daughters to JJ's sons, it will strengthen her social standing since the Mondragons are a "good" family. I think she also sees benefits of their lands/ranches being united. But she is just starting to realize what financial troubles JJ is having. I think she thought the Mondragons had more money than they do. But the way the JJ is bowing to the McGuires, and what Maripaz is telling her, shows Lucrezia that's not so accurate. I think she is now hitching her wagon to Tony McGuire and sees mom's realtionship with Tony as the ticket. But NOT any relationship between Ivan and her daughters, since she knows his real origins.
 

Ibarramedia- We were thinking alike.

Lucia did recommend a colleague to David, but he refused. She agreed to just test the waters to see if this can work. David is using the apartment of a friend who is away. He mentioned this to Lucia. He's not paying rent.
 

UA- I so enjoyed your wonderfully detailed recap. Thanks especially for the translation of key conversations.

Here are some details I liked: "splendidly shirtless Ivan" (ole!)and your pointing out how Antolin plays it close to the vest. I thought your observation about the postman having to ring more than twice was super clever.

Was I wrong in thinking that the card Benito was so proud of was his newly acquired drivers license? He is going to be Anthony's driver.

I can't believe we've had no cura and no secretos of the confession to protect! Dios mio!

Sondie
 

OK, now be patient with me, but I still find the relationships in this story confusing.
Why is Lucrezia saying that Ivan and Maripaz are first cousins but no one is saying that about Lucia?
Ivan is actually JJ's son, but it is not widely known, right?
And his mom, Alicia has some claim on Carlota's property, because she is the daughter of Carlota's dead husband, right? Yet Alicia is not related to Lucia and Maripaz, right?
I just know Ivan is going to end up being his own grandpa. There are people in Appalachia with less confusing pedigrees.
 

UA Thank you for your wonderful recap

Emarie, Lucrezia is more adamant with Maripaz about Ivan because she's being more rebellious and open and lying about wanting to be with Ivan and marrying him. As opposed to Lucia, she's only confessed her feelings for Ivan to Carlotta ... up this now Lucrezia has no idea that Lucia is in love with Ivan.

Ivan is not their cousin because Lucrezia is not the daughter of Curiel she was adopted. The only true descendents of the Curiel are Ivan and Alex. Lucrezia is holding to the Curiel for prestige but in fact she's not one; she's using that to deter Maripaz from having anything to do with Ivan but to no avail.

She's not having this convo yet with Lucia because it seems that Lucia doesn't really talk to her about her life at all and since Carlotta knows the truth; she's not counseling Lucia and of the non-truth that Lucrezia is telling Maripaz.

Myo-
 

---I need to proofread before posting ...apologies for typos and all

Myo-
 

With all the talk about an "Illegal" The could confuse everyone and say that it is Benito. But the thing is Both Ivan and Tony do not know the conversation of JJ and Lucrezia. Just thought I'd bring that up.

With all that said and done, I'd still like to know why Carolina is much more concerned about Ivan finding the truth about Alex than Gerry is.

BTW, I thought that Benito did get his driver's license and he was holding it up with his photo in it.

Ibarramedia
 

As far as blue blood, Ivan is as true as you can get according to Lucrezia's criteria

He's JJ son and the grandson of Curiel. Ivan knows who is his bio father, but doesn't know yet that he's related to Curiel.

Personally, I don't get Lucrezia's antics (I know that she hates Alicia and Ivan) but looking from my point of view, Ivan has the right family blood line(even if not legitimate); he's rich; he's educated you'll think that she'll jump at the chance to have any of her daughters hook up with him; I'm guessing that she just can't shed her antiquated prejudices towards him.

Myo-
 

MYO, hste trumps all logic. So Lucrezia is still blinded by her hatred for Ivan. He could be the emperor of the whole world and she still won't want her daughters to have anything to do with him. She would want some of the money and that's it.



Ibarramedia
 

I think Lucrezia felt threatened by Alicia and now Ivan, especially after she found out she is not Teodoro Curiel's bio child. You are exactly right that Ivan is a true blue blood and a true Curiel, while she is NOT. She doesn't even know who her father is. I think she's acting out her own insecurities.

She can't keep acting nasty to Ivan if she wants his money. If she keeps treating Ivan like crap, no matter how much Tony likes Carly, he won't stand for it. She better start swallowing some pride and start kissing up to Ivan if she knows what's good for her.
 

"I'd still like to know why Carolina is much more concerned about Ivan finding the truth about Alex than Gerry is."

Ibarramedia: This is how I see it. If the truth comes out, Gerry is still Alex's grandfather. But she will be nothing to him-- no blood relation at all. I think she feels like she will lose her "nephew" Alex once he knows his real origins.
 

Ibarramedia,

Regarding Carolina being more upset for them finding the truth about Alex than Gerry; I'm guessing that she raised, nutured and loved Alex for the last 10 years; he's a son to her and she's not about to give him up to his bio dad who hasn't been in the picture.

Gerry is not much upset because at the end of the day Alex is still family to him even if Ivan finds out about him being his son; Alex will still remain his family;

Whereas for Carolina once the truth comes out, Ivan will more likely puts a claim on the kid and will live her without her "son" that she cared for and dependent on. As of now, she can't picture her life without Alex.

I'm also guessing that she'll get more histeric because of Gerry's weak character it won't be too long until he starts spilling the frijoles to someone...

Myo-
 

Thanks for the great recap UA and wonderful discussion. Your questions about JJ and his own denial (of being a monster and horrible husband and father) are interesting but I wonder if a person so self absorbed can see any faults in him/herself.

Myo - thanks for your clarification from yesterday about what Camilo really knows about Alex.

I too think MP talking to Antolin about Lucia is bad news.
 

Muchas gracias, Jardinera, Vivi, Vario. I checked about eight different web pages of Spanish insults and couldn't find this first insult word. I actually think we could create a better database of insult words than most of the ones I've seen in the last 24 hours.

Vivi, what I can't wait to see is the Meandragon faces when they find out that Carmen is the mother of Saul's illegitimate daughter (which I bet he doesn't even know about).

I'm still trying to decide if Antolin can do an about-face and be a decent man.

I definitely see Lucia getting a rep... that Ivan will know is just idle gossip. I am already imagining Lucrazia threatening to ship her off to a convent. Which amazes me that any parent still thinks they can do that.

Being poor is only shameful to those who haven't been.

Variopinta: There are other novelas that don't have parish priests, but I'm rather surprised that this one doesn't seem to have one. It's a small-town setting, so I would more expect it to have a priest than a big city story. Especially with all the secrets among these families.

Ibarramedia, I don't see how there will be more to inherit for grandchildren that could outnumber their parents' generation unless they can increase their acreage. We already have two: Alicia and Alex. Unless David and Maripaz marry other people, that will leave Judith (who hasn't even dated anyone as far as we know) and the children Ivan and Lucia will inevitably have.

Karen, JJ is a narcissist. They never see their own faults.
 

There's an awful lot of concern for reputation in a place where it seems like half the characters are bastard children. You think they would've given that up by now.

What was with the putdown of the "illegal" (Benito?) They're in Mexico now and he's Mexican. He's already poor and therefore low class in the eyes of Saul. Does the fact that he cossed to the US make him even lower? Didn't get that.
 

I don't think there was really a put down of an illegal, more like curiosity about why Lucrezia said Tony is somehow involved with an illegal. Since they know Ivan is his adopted son, there is a question about whether Lucrezia was referring to Ivan. Saul also seemed to be suspicious of perhaps Tony and Ivan being involved in something shady (smuggling, etc.) if they're involved with illegals.

No one but Antolin and Camilo know about Benito and his story of meeting Ivan while they both crossed illegally. I think Ibarramedia was just saying that if people start sniffing around and asking questions about the "illegal" they can just say they were speaking about Benito and not Ivan. I think enough people know Ivan's story though, that if this becomes some big deal, there won't be any use denying it.

As for whether illegals are looked down upon in Mexico. Well, since they typically come from the lower classes (otherwise they probably wouldn't be crossing illegally), then they would face the same descrimination of other low class Mexicans in Mexico. I do remember that some time ago Jarocha said that those that have gone over to the U.S. and come back are looked down upon somewhat because they are seen to be tacky and lack some of the more gentle cultural mannerism of those born, bred, and living all their lives in Mexico. We're talking about poor people here. Not rich girls like Maripaz who went off to boarding school in the U.S.
 

Great recap Urban. Loved the detailed conversations.

Saúl got the worst from Juan Jaime but he is also more annoying and stupid.

"Does the fact that he crossed to the US make him even lower? "
Yes, unfortunately. Mexicans in México and especially in the north where they are close to the US and probably come and go between each country for clothes, business, etc. hate any possible relation to those who crossed the border illegally. The southern you go, the less it matters, especially in the lower classes but they will always be seen a little differently than before they left.

Jarocha
 

Hey Jarocha! Glad I remembered one of your cultural lessons. I can't remember when you mentioned the whole looking down on illegals thing, but it stuck in my brain.

Someone had a question about the differences between the northern and southern accents. Are there specific examples you can point to for us to listen for?
 

"Gata" is sometimes used in Mexico to refer to a housemaid.
 

Vivi,if I remember correctly, Benito was already in the US. Ivan was given his name & address to contact when he arrived in LA. Benito put him up for awhile. The guy he was traveling with died when he fell & hit his head on a rock when they were trying to avoid the helicopter..

Variopinta
 

Alcahueta..I've always taken it to mean partner in crime or instigator...or the person ready to double dog dare you.

JJ is such a trip always checking himself out in the mirror, I wait for him to say to his image how much he admires his full head of hair, so silky and shiny and not bad for an old crank.

MP always looks like she is in a hurry to deliver her lines before she forgets them, she just doesn't look natural on camera. I love the way Ivan has been putting her off and how increasingly annoyed she is getting.

As for David seeing Lucia for his ED problems at this rate I think the poor guy needs help pronto, seems like everyone has been discussing his problems. Pobrecito.
 

Variopinta-

Both Ivan and Benito were crossing illegally, but Benito already had another way of getting over. Remember, Ivan was meeting Antolin's shady contact. They both met on the Mexican side of their journey to cross illegally in the bust to Tijuana. Benito's ways was obviously safer that Ivan's. He had also crossed over a bunch of times, which is why he already had the contacts in L.A. to share with Ivan. He is back in Mexico again because La Migra caught him and sent him back.
 

Vivi/Jarocha-

Thanks for the info! I simpler conversations are easy enough, but some of these are beyond my spanish. Nice to see, though, that Ivan is willing to help his friends, esp. since Benito did so much for Ivan.
 

Thank you, UA. Great recap.

This novela is rather low-key so far. I like that and wonder if, with its pretty decent story, it couldn't have been turned into something of real quality. I'm thinking about something like La Otra, where the emphasis is on a little bit of mystery and a lot of character.

Oh, well. It's a conventional novela but an enjoyable one. I'm content.
 

Vivi, you are correct. I meant that if they started asking questions about an "illegal" they can refer to Benito instead of revealing that Ivan was an illegal that was adoptred by Tony. Lucrezia sure loved having one up on JJ. JJ does not know what the heck she was referring to.



Ibarramedia
 

Did DZ ask SE if he could slip her the tongue, or was that in the script?
 

Wonderful recap UA.

Wonderful recaps all week, everyone. I hate that I don't have as much time to get in the conversations as I used to.

I love Laisha's Spanish.
I love love love the scenery in this one.
And while it may not be perfect writing, it is so much better than TdA...tough I did kind of chortle a little when Ivan shoved all the take-out food off the counter, jumped on it and professed his love to Lucia.
 

Vivi,
I should know better than to question you. Seems like I get half the story.
I didn't really get that Ivan & Benito left at the same time.
I do remember now that the group split after the smugglers dumped them.

Variopinta
 

UA, thanks for a great recap and I rely on all you fabulous recappers to help me out with everything.

Antolin does intrigue me. He observes and gets involved to his advantage. Now what are he and Maripaz going to cook up and what will she owe Antolin for his help or info. Funny how he said he doesn't know Ivan that well but he has known Ivan since childhood and Ivan lived with him and his family off and on.

Nice for the main couple to get together so soon but will they now have more misunderstandings and be separated til the end per usual in novelalandia.

GinCA
 

The idea of looking down on someone for leaving the country for a period of time threw me until I remembered something my mother told me in the 80s or 90s. She was in Germany visiting her sisters and a bank teller who was changing money for her gave her a dirty look when she handed him an American passport. He was her age or older (my mother was a child during WWII).