Caray, Caray!

Love the list. In Luzma's case although admittedly she fears that Pablo will see her as damaged goods, her withdrawal is equally based on the fact that her uncle will kill Pablo if she continues with the relationship.
 

Someone needs to put Leoncerdo out of our misery, but that will be a while yet.

I have a lot of issues about the misogyny in US television as well. I refuse to watch I Love Lucy because it made her look so childish and stupid.
 

Anthropologist: I think that this is an excellent topic. Thank you for posting this as this is something that has raised questions in my own mind about these telenovelas. In fact, I would go so far as to say that there have been moments that the blatant misogyny has disturbed me enough that I simply cannot watch these shows.

Your questions: "Does it reflect life or feed the misogyny that is already there? Where does it even come from in the first place and what can be done about it?"

I'm going to answer you with the questions I myself have pondered to include: a) is the misogyny demonstrated in these novelas reflective of the culture in Mexico and Latin America as a whole? b) do the people in Mexico and Latin America give their tacit approval to this portrayal? c) why is misogyny considered to be (I'm making an assumption here on the part of the writers who write these stories)so crucial to so many of these stories?

I have not felt comfortable enough with posting these questions wrt certain novelas (La Que No Podia Amar, for example) as I feel that such comments would either be a) laughed off with the usual "it's just a story" or b) not taken seriously as I do not come to the CarayCaray table with any gravitas, so to speak. So, I thank you for providing this forum (and the many other forums/topics you have provided in the past).

I find some of the 19th century styles of thinking on these shows to be baffling, but I have to think that somewhere along the line, both the writers and the actors, feel that misogyny and misogynistic characters are crucial and central to the stories.

If the actors find misogyny to be acceptable, then I fail to see how there will ever be any change.

If the audiences find misogyny not only to be acceptable, but expected, then I fail to see how there will ever be any change.

Obviously, the American/European audiences are not the target audiences of these stories as I think these viewers "might" have more of a tendency to walk away (thereby losing a key demographic wrt advertising sales).

Some of these story lines (the 5 points you have listed, for example) are upsetting enough that for this sole viewer, it is enough to turn me away from the story. La Que No Podia Amar is a key example. I followed it only with the recappers' writings here as the first few weeks were so depressing that I had to ask myself why I would even contemplate watching. I want to improve my Spanish just as much as the next person, but there are limits.

I could not watch that show and followed it only with the writings here and peripherally at that.

My last question is: are these tales so powerful (relatively speaking) as to perpetuate societal stereotypes in Mexican and Latin American culture? I have no answer, but would very much like to hear some well thought out hypotheses.

Thank you again and
Regards,

Another Anon
 

This comment has been removed by the author.
 

I think it (the sexism) is a bit exaggerated, and in Por Ella, it is outrageously exaggerated as a central theme. In Por Ella, they are really poking fun at men with Neanderthal attitudes - his kids even name Fernando as such - showing how ridiculous they are. They're really poking fun at everybody - including the poor women who were raised to put up with such a thing. Though at least they're allowing Sylvia to escape and grow past it. But Marcela? Perhaps the difference is that oafish Fernando actually loves Marcela.

I notice in the other novelas it's more of a generational thing, reflecting how "people were raised". It's the older generation that tends to make the more stereotypical sexist assumptions, and the younger generation that seems to get over the idea quickly when shown otherwise. The more rural the setting, the more pronounced. Not including the young men who think they have to go all macho and possessive to "keep their woman".

IMO I think it's used mostly as a plot device because it's "easy", just like the many other hackneyed plot devices that are used in TNs over and over again. Yet they often have characters dealing with frustration and either more evil (villains) or growth (good guys) when their assumptions are proved wrong.

But since most TNs have the heroine triumphing in the end, mostly on her own terms, it doesn't seem misogynistic overall. Otherwise the heroine would "give up", relieved to be rescued by her man. And few TNs work out that way.

Helena gave a strong and clear speech to Pluti yesterday how she didn't want to be "rescued" or "protected" from challenges, but to stand up for herself, and I think that's the true PSA going on in Por Ella.

 

Urban- what a great topic, I agree. I think most of the misognist attitudes in these Tn's are for plot device too. I had to stop watching LQPNA too, due to the treatment of women in that one and that whip of Rohell's. I couldn't take the character. Another Anon I agree with you there.Audrey I think you are right too, about the exaggerated sexism
in Por Ella, but I can't stand the character of Bastardo.

Urban- It's a shame that you don't watch I Love Lucy, cause Lucille Ball actually wrote and produced alot of those episodes and I think it was a product of the times in the '50's. The men treated women like sex objects then and thought women couldn't run things either. She just made it funny, in my own humble opinion.
 

Good topic Urban! Luzma actually hasn't said anything about not being pure enough for Pablo, has she? It's all about protecting him from getting hurt, so I'm not including her.

As long as the writers are trying to show that these ideas are misguided/wrong/stupid and don't romanticized, then I'm ok with much of it. But it seems hard for them to know the difference.

In LQNPA, the heroine was literally bought and locked up by the galan. Yet, she fell in love with him, and chose to go back to him time and time again. Supposedly, her love eventually changed him. I call bs on that. It sends a wrong message to both men and women about these things being a sign of how much he loved her, and that if you love someone hard enough, you can change his abusive behavior.

Eva is exaggerating the macho behaviors, precisely to show how ridiculous they are. None of the men, not even our hero, comes out looking sexy/appealing (unlike Rogelio) because they behave this way. They look like foolish jerks instead. This is the correct message to send.

 

I have to tell you UA that this is a more than interesting and timely topic. Unfortunately, the system gobbled up my comments which were so involved and so long that I've forgotten half of my writing. All this is to say - don't think we are ignoring your topic, I just need to remember to copy before I try to post. Again, thanks for the topic and the forum.

Yola
 

Madelaine said...
Audrey I think you are right too, about the exaggerated sexism in Por Ella, but I can't stand the character of Bastardo.

That's probably because the Bastardo character IS a true mysogynist (hater of women).
 

UA--Gracias for this timely weekend topic. And what a thought provoking theme, coming so soon after "a binder full of women." Ni modo, you all are far more learned than I, but I'll share one pet peeve that has irritated me many U.S. tn watchers from time to time. This insistence that the heroine remains pure and virginal ..and .. unmarried in the church's view until her galan comes along.

It's ok for the galan to taste other "delicacies," but not for the gallina. I watched Amorcito Corazon yesterday and it's ok for Fernando to move immediately to a new love of his life while having criticized Isa for starting up and continuing a relationship with Jorrible (although we all know that both relationships are poisonous).

Even in Amor Bravio, where we have an older heroine, we have not been specifically told, nor alluded to Camila's previous relationship with Luis, although it lasted 6 years before they decided to tie the knot. As the heroines get older and older, this isn't going to be very realistic.

Is this a vestige of prior attitudes or a reflection of still current ones? The man in a "true and loving" relationship should be experienced and know what he's doing (based on prior practice), while the woman is supposed to be carried along by his prowess and expertise into a first sensual embrace. (Lots of Luck, Lotharios everywhere.)
 

Vivi in DC said...
In LQNPA, the heroine was literally bought and locked up by the galan. Yet, she fell in love with him, and chose to go back to him time and time again. Supposedly, her love eventually changed him. I call bs on that. It sends a wrong message to both men and women about these things being a sign of how much he loved her, and that if you love someone hard enough, you can change his abusive behavior.

That's a really good point about LQNPA Vivi! I kept hoping that Ana Paula would "grow up" and quit idealizing (and demonizing). But it never happened! Ugh!
 

I also loathe the use of rape as a plot device. That's truly twisted and disgusting.
 

I can't figure out exactly what Helena's father is about. What could make him hate women so much? He's not an illiterate slug like Leoncerdo so what's his excuse?

There were two faults in LQNPA's writing:

-- The hasty rewrite due to Jorge Salinas' medical emergency
-- The lack of sufficient flashbacks to show us what Rogelio was like before the accident and what he therefore had the potential to be again.

I never doubted that he was not the machista cerdo his father had been. His anger was about frustration and his treatment of Sinthia was all about her refusal to realize her own potential. Look at the two women he loved: Neither Vanessa nor Ana Paula were stupid.

I see that Eva is about making fun of the sexism and showing men that they have a lot to learn about women and life. I just hope that Eduardo is heavily consequenced for his attitude and actions.
 

Anita- The whole virginal heroine, while the galan can sleep around drives me nuts too. Either they both keep their legs crossed (MEPS), or they can both have other loves/adventures until they're ready to make a go of their relationship.

The heroine and galan in Abismo have fallen into this lame storyline. He's slept many times with his ex. But it drives him crazy to think she's slept with another (even though she hasn't).

I'm not convinced Cami is a virgin in Amor Bravio. She and Luis were together a long time and I think they lived together. Plus, Alonso would have been chewing on his paw even more, had he lost the opportunity to deflower Cami. You just can't sustain the virgin storyline with older heroines.

In both Tontas and Por Ella Soy Eva, the heroines were in ill-fated relationships YEARS before which resulted in kids. But neither of them had sex again until they met the galan all those years later. It's virtually the same as the young virgin storyline.
 

Yeah, in Tontas no Van al Cielo, the heroine had sex ONE TIME just before her wedding. She runs out on her galan when she realizes he's been cheating on her. She, of course, ends up pregnant and raises her child in hiding. And she returns EIGHT YEARS LATER she still has never had sex with anyone else!

The good thing is, though that she ends up dumping the "father of her child" again years later because she falls in love with someone else and marries him instead. LOL! That was refreshing!!!!

In the meantime said "father of her child", slept with his to be sister-in-law while engaged to heroine, ended up marrying said sister after his fiance ran off. And yet still has another child out of wedlock and ends up supporting that child and mother. Wow!
 

The sexless life thing annoys me, too. It's as though having sex with more than one man WBC (without benefit of clergy) brands a woman a harlot.

And if women are supposed to be virgins at the altar how do men get the experience they're supposed to have? It's not like every town has only one prostitute.
 

Urban, I am handicapped in this conversation because I haven't seen the TN's you all have seen. I have seen LQNPA, Eva Luna, Soy tu Dueña, Fuerza del Destino and now Refugio.
The biggest complaint I have is that the female protagonists are often incredibly naive, to the point they look stupid. Also, the female cast members are so often shown as very flojo. In Refugio, Matilda and Estalita often look like idiots. There may be agism here, also.
 

Well, at the risk of introducing politics, we have this year in the U.S. seen a number of states passing laws forcing doctors to lie to their female patients, and prescribing what kinds of examinations should be given, including unnecessary invasive ultrasounds.

We have "binders full of women" Romney who thinks if the economy gets better businesses will look for women workers (because there is no point in looking for them otherwise) and let them get home in time to make dinner, commenters saying women were turned off by the "aggressiveness" of Tuesday's Presidential debate, Todd Akin's "legitimate rape" and Joe Walsh who opposes all abortion, even to save the life of the mother because, according to him, with modern medical science a woman's life is never in danger.

In short, misogyny is alive and well in the U.S. so, although I agree with you that LatAm novelas almost never have an intelligent, successful woman who isn't the villain, LatAm is simply a more extreme case of the sexism and misogyny that still pervade the U.S. (Need I even mention Russ Limbaugh, King of Talk Radio?)
 

Re: the rape storyline. Heinous for any victim, but I'm especiallly affected when the victims are young like in the two TNs I watched with rape storylines: Lumi in STuD and Luz in AB. I couldn't even watch the STuD eps from the rape on until I read the recap that showed Lumi was back to work.
 

The FBI once estimated that about 33% of all women will be victims of sex crimes. This is astonishing to me, but we will never know the truth because of how under-reported it is. That estimate may be closer to the truth than anyone wants to know.

At least we haven't suffered paedophilia in these stories yet and I hope we don't go there.
 

I agree with Anonymous 5:53 that the misogyny and sexism is simply more subtle and undercover here in the States. But it exists. And it is strong. And misogyny isn't just confined to men, many women evidence it also, in their harsh judgments of other women, in their condemnation for any woman who "steps out of line", is ambitious etc. Attitudes change but very very slowly. Maybe in the next century there will be true equality but I won't be around to see it!
 

Great topic and great comments. I just want to make two small points. Vivi, I think that last night Luzma DID say to her friend (Irene?) that she's no longer worthy of Pablo. Sigh.

Yola and anyone else tired of having sites gobble up your messages before they're posted: if you use Firefox, there's a terrific free add-on called, appropriately, Lazarus, that will save everything you type in Firefox and allow you to retrieve it when necessary. You can tell it how many days it should save what you type. It has saved me MANY times, and I highly recommend it. You can find it at https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/lazarus-form-recovery/
 

UA thanks for the topic. And I wouldn't be surprised if that estimate wasn't higher with regard to sex crimes against women. I live in a university town and drinking is the main thing many undergrads do. I shudder to think about the real stats on date rape here.

Add me to the list that HATE rape stories even more than baby snatching (but I HATE that too). As Nanette noted, these stories are often made more horrible b/c the victims are often young women, who often internalize guilt and shame.

In most TNs, the bad guys and when the galan is in stupid mode, misogyny abounds but these characters are bad so by extension they don't think right.

As Anon 5:53 and Judy noted, misogyny is alive in the well in the US too.

What I find very disturbing about TN misogyny is how most intelligent, strong willed women are often villains, the flip side of what Emaire said about TN heroines. It subtly promotes that idea that as a woman you don't want to be too smart. Ack!
 

I think most of the sexism is for the cinderella-like stories that they like to tell. I mean think of Disney. No matter how strong and intelligent the princess is, the end game for her is to find a prince and fall in love and get married and live happily ever after. This is our Disney, and we know that in the bad guys are getting what's coming to them. (But not soon enough LEONCIO)!

It's hard to find out what things are really like without going into full research mode since most of the stories on the internet are exaggerated. When I was in Mexico City I got men helping me get around (in a truly helpful, non-threatening way, not in the "there's a map in my bedroom" way), and I got the "Ehhhhhh Mamacita". They're the same as men everywhere. Some are nice and some think that catcalls are fun. Idiots.

But looking at the UN website shows an education rate for boys and girls to be about equal. Can't say what happens afterwards but it's a start. I'd wonder if the church invests in these stories but then a story like Por Eva comes out.

In Por Eva I feel like the sexism is exaggerated as part of the story, but that the family of Fernando and Marcela rings the most true. Yes, he's a jerk and she could do better (like a man who can put on his own jacket and doesn't need his bib napkin put on when he eats), but she wanted to talk to her kids realistically about sex and I doubt that those kids would follow in either parents footsteps. They are the transition family between Adriano's and Modesto's generation, who expected this kind of submission from women, and their kids who have different expectations.

Another Anon- No need for gravitas. They're just soaps. And opposing opinion is perfectly fine (as long as it's not rude). Just breathe and know there is a support group here for all the times you want to throw something at the television.

Kelly
 

Thanks, UA, for this interesting topic. It's complex and multi-dimensional as the posts suggest. But we all know essentially sexist and misogynist attitudes and actions when we see them.

I have watched a few novelas that tried to cast women in a different light, from Tres Mujeres, to Tontas, La Reina del Sur and Palabra de Mujer. Probably Para Volver a Amar did it most successfully. In these cases, almost all of the women end up their soul mates and/or are pregnant. It's much more unusual to see a women who is independent in the end, let alone childless; there were a couple of women who did have children but not a man at the end of PVA.

Now, strong, independent women who choose "none of the above" for a galan might not make for interesting television, but why not try?

So, for me, two conditions found in novelas are backward with regard to real life. First, the principe azul theme -- everyone has their "other half". And second, having or raising a child is the real essence of love between a couple.

Not only do we know that these traditional values aren't shared by everyone in reality, but urban, educated, successful women don't settle for just anyone and may choose not to have families. And Latin American countries are full of women who are independent and successful. They just don't show up much in telenovelas. And, I have to add, most of my single Latin American women friends here and those I've met in Central America don't watch novelas!
 

Forgot to thank Juanita for the tip about Lazarus.
 

Traveling Lady says: And, I have to add, most of my single Latin American women friends here and those I've met in Central America don't watch novelas!

Yeah, I sometimes question my participation in a medium that is Disney-like in its portrayal of men's and women's attitudes toward one another. I'm relatively new to the TN scene and am enjoying it greatly. I suppose I think that they are reflective of what life is like in Latin America, particularly rurally, and in that case they're telling the truth. But I'm conflicted because I feel it does also promote this type of thinking... just like television in the United States skewers our perception of what life could (or should) be like by its predominant focus on people of wealth, often great wealth. I loved Roseanne for this reason. In both cases I think it makes people unhappy with their own situation ("To be happy I need the money/ perfect love that I'm watching every night on my TV"). Of course that didn't stop me from being a loyal fan of Knot's Landing all those years. I guess I'm describing 'watcher's guilt.'

I am loving every minute of Por Ella Soy Eva. Like several people have commented already, the sexism is exaggerated to make a point (and good comedy). They're taking the status quo and attempting to turn it on its ears. It's a bit like the Gospels in this way. I like when a story makes us question our assumptions, although even here I think they could take it farther. But I suppose that could also lose some of its audience, so I'm hoping it has struck the right balance not to be preachy and to be entertaining while showing us our foibles.

I'd like to throw something else into the mix, and that is my impression of homophobia as just another from of misogyny. A lot of what's behind the discomfort with gay men is the incredulous question of "Why would any man want to be (act like) a woman?" And for lesbians, I think the discomfort is "How dare a woman want to be (act like) a man?" And these attitudes come from people of both genders, because we don't like it when we can't pigeonhole behavior. What many don't see is how freeing it is to be rid of the constraints of gender roles. Then we can express ourselves more fully.

Yeah, I'd agree that gender roles are still rather strong in this country. Blue and pink. But a lot of that is changing, and rather fast I think (which makes some people nervous). I see young girls today as having a whole world of options open to them that they didn't even 50 years ago (it was a slap in the face to watch Mad Men). It makes me glad to be alive in this time as opposed to any other time, to be around to watch this change.

 

Some of the TNs we see are re-re-re-remakes of things that were written decades ago and recycled with only minor tweaks to the scripts to update character names and technology. Social attitudes? Pfft, nope. (And, as others have mentioned, TNs are also influenced by fairy tales that are centuries old.)

So even if the newer TNs have more modern attitudes, they're still part of a soup that's full of moldy ingredients.

Whether or not they reflect current attitudes in Latin America, I wouldn't know. I see less blatant, more insidious forms of misogyny and sexism in US TV shows, so it's not hardly dead here yet either. If I happen to see anything like that when I'm with my nieces and nephews, I point it out and mock it as the irrational and backwards thing that it is.

And that is pretty much what is happening in Por Ella. Except for Pluto, who probably won't meet his Piecart of Justice until the last episode, every sexist and/or misogynist man in the show is either suffering already, or poised for a very painful fall. (Adriano has already been humiliated once and will probably get nailed a second time before we're done.)

So I wouldn't compare the attitudes in Por Ella with those in, say, STuD or heaven forbid FELS.
 

Several of you have mentioned Tontas. One of the (many!) things that I really despised about the show was that the heroine was such a man-hater. Perhaps the other side of the coin in this discussion of mysogyny on TNs. And as for Por Ella, what strikes me is that every man in the show is a worthless dirtbag. Except for the hero who started as a worthless dirtbag, but only by becoming a woman is he able to be considerate, thoughtful, fair, etc. In other words, "all men are pigs!"
 

Brilliant topic UA an d you sure spurred some great discussion with it. I think Kelly has a point wtih the fact that the all-too-trite continuation of TN plots that the heroine is a target for all things evil, falls head over with the first guy she meets, saves herself for him no matter what HE does, and by the end her reward is only marriage and babies, often giving up the work she had been doing, lends so much to this. It doesn't help that so many TN's seem to be rehashing older shows over and over again, thus the same tired plotlines keep coming back.

The lack of originality doesn't lend well to bringing more modern views and realistic relationships into the TN world. So we still see the same tired mistreatment of the good women and the same tired interp: to be good, you are pure and willing to overlook and accept the treatment of others to show you are a bit of a martyr ( especially in the TN's with a heavy religious presence), if you are evil, then you are the one sleeping with men and shown to be a powerful woman in business, etc.I personally hate the implications that if you are the most powerful women in town, or someone running a busines, you have to be a bitch to do so, otherwise you just know some guy will best you or you'll eventually give it all for the love of good man who will be the breadwinner. How 1950's.

Someone can better tell if this is the culture, though I don't think it would be especially in the major cities, but the laziness of producers and writers in developing REAL modern storylines will just keep feeding the frenzy and audiences just lap it up.

Oh, and UA. I too am one of those who could never stomach I Love Lucy. Even as a kid, I found her whiney and didn't like that she was shown to be so stupid and childish, even for the sake of comedy. Never got it.
 

ITA that much of the trouble with these tns is that they are updated remakes of very old stories. But I think even thoroughly modern/new stories seem to struggle with how to portray women without injecting a lot of sexist elements. This is the same for US movies and shows too.

I actually don't find most tns to be misogynistic, but more so sexist.

I do however find most US reality shows to be blatantly misogynistic, even if they star women and are supposedly for women. The "Real" Housewives shows make me embarrassed to be called a woman. They show women as being shallow, vapid, jealous, petty, and scheming, with no depth or understanding of anything outside of their narrow social sphere.

I'd rather watch a tn heroine be "rescued" by her galan and have a happily ever after any day, over watching these "real" women bitch and bicker.

 

Juanita- Thanks for the info on what I missed in that last scene with Luzma. I was so caught up in the emotion of that scene that I didn't hear her say that. I still think it's an excuse she gave Irene, since the real reason is to keep Pablo safe and alive. Not being able to say that out loud, she gave the standard answer to her friend about why she can't be with Pablo now. I trust these writers, so I think they will handle the development of that story well.
 

I can handle Mad Men because it's history. Also, as an advertising professional I feel it is part of my heritage.

However, I often wonder whether showing the level of sexism we occasionally see in TNs encourages this attitude. Let's not forget that these programs are seen worldwide.

LQNPA broke a few of these stereotypes by having its heroine not a virgin when she finally connects with Senor Right, but by having her pregnant by another man before that. And not only not pregnant at the end of the story for whatever reason but active in her husband's business.

However, she still desperately wanted a baby. I have to believe there are women in Latin America who would rather not (but not be like Gala about it).
 

I would never question anyone's viewing habits -- I'm shocked at what will draw my attention after a long day when my easy chair and remote beckon me to relaxation! Like Vivi, I can't get into the reality shows, but have got caught up in many other shows that lot pretty grim in terms of this discussion.

I want to respond to the question about homophobia being a form of sexism -- I agree. There seems to be room in some novelas for the gay male, sympathetically portrayed. I really liked the way that Donde esta Elena portrayed a gay couple pretty much free of stereotypes.

But I don't think I have seen a lesbian couple on a novela. Have I missed or forgotten something?
 

Traveling Lady and Ithabill- We could have a whole separate and very involved discussion about homophobia and gay stereotypes in Latin America.

On this topic, LatAm is not so far behind the US. As far as lesbians go, they are virtually invisible in US basic cable shows, and totally invisible in tns. There has only been one lesbian character that I can remember in a tn-- the psychologist in Tontas.

 

Yes, Vivi. I think misogyny manifests itself toward gay men in the attitude of let's beat it out of them. Toward lesbians it's more, let's just make it invisible. Unless, of course, it's presented as entertainment for straight men, and then it's nothing serious.

I also can't watch 'reality television.' I've tried because it gets talked about at work a lot. But it doesn't interest me and I find most of it offensive (a bad combination). I call it 'people behaving badly television.' I suppose they think they're promoting rugged individualism, but instead I find it to be about a lot of self-involvement. The shows seem to be all ego, and I think it sets a bad tone for us as a society. Blame it on my liberal bias.

By the way, a friend of mine refers to Lifetime network, which promotes itself as "television for women," he (affectionately) calls it the 'men are behaving badly channel.'

My favorite complaint about television and the movies is that there is too much violence and not enough nudity. After all, all of us have seen another person naked (hopefully), but few have any experience with gun violence and explosions (hopefully). I can't remember the last time I saw a movie without a gun in it.

UA, I called Mad Men a 'slap in the face' meaning it as a surprise to me. I was surprised not some much by the misogyny, but by how all that behavior was taken for granted as the norm, by both men and women. It did point out to me how we have changed in that short time since.

 

Before I go on, I agree with pretty much all of daisynjay, Kelly and Vivi's point about the trite plots and re re re makes of old stories. Fairy tales can go back centuries and we still read them to our kids.

Just humor me for this...where would the bridal industry be if we didn't have gals trying on wedding dresses and other evening wear and end up walking up the aisle in telenovelas???

Designers and Cos. can't all be on Say Yes to the Dress (which I watched for all of two episodes....[which says {what?} about me?]).


 

This comment has been removed by the author.
 

Julie--I didn't add you in my comment.

I love your line "So even if the newer TNs have more modern attitudes, they're still part of a soup that's full of moldy ingredients."

That's so right to the point!


Sat Oct 20, 12:19:00 PM EDT

 

Anita, thanks for bringing up Amorcito -- it's got its share of problems, to be sure, but I've been impressed with how they've portrayed Zoe as sexually experienced without anyone really casting aspersions on her morals. (Of course now they've got her barefoot & pregnant, but still. I don't think that will last, anyway.)

It's hard to make a determination about career women in TNs, since no one ever seems to do any work anyway. But I do find it depressing that the men dress professionally at the office, while the women dress like they're going to a nightclub. Hello, Wardrobe...? It *is* possible to look attractive without uncovering your assets.
 

There was a Brazilian novela with lesbian characters a few years ago, but I only heard about that at work. In more recent times, La Reina del Sur had a lesbian and a bisexual woman whom (IIRC) hooked up.

The gay men I can recall who were non-cliche in Televisa novelas were characters in Amar Sin Limites (the heroine's brother) and Barrera de Amor (the senior heroine's best friend and business partner). Not much beyond that point.
 

I've been following this discussion since you first posted it, UA, but have been reluctant to comment. I've enjoyed generous acceptance by this largely feminine convocation for a number of years and certainly wouldn't want to jeopardize the goodwill you all have directed toward me.

The true misogyny that has troubled me the most in the TNs has been the frequent violence toward and mistreatment of women. Certainly we expect some such behavior from the bad guys but I had a very difficult time sticking with LQNPA because of the downright criminal behavior of Rogelio. Had justice been done, he would have ended up in jail.

UA, I kind of understand your negativity toward I Love Lucy, however, what you view as childish, most of us at the time saw as childlike. I submit this amusing little clip which pokes fun at the English language as a small example of why the show is endearing to so many.

Carlos


 

LOL! I love that clip Carlos. :) We should somehow have the link to that clip on our sidebar.
 

Coincidentally, I mentioned Lucy and Ethel in a recap last night. I have mixed feelings about Lucy's portrayal. Lucille Ball was a shrewd businesswoman who knew her strengths and how to convert laughter into money. If she were around today she probably would take a different approach with her comedy to appeal to current tastes.

Which leads to another thought: current tastes in comedy often consist of men doing stupid things. Isn't this sexist, too? And it's not exactly new. Ralph Kramden and Ed Norton were being stupid and childish before Lucy and Ethel, I believe, as were lots of other male characters.

Perhaps it's a kind of misanthropy, rather than misogyny. On the other hand, perhaps it's a way of embracing the things that make us imperfect.

Anyway, so,it probably sounds like I'm making excuses for Lucy. Honestly, there are a lot of I Love Lucy episodes that I can't bear to watch. When Ricky complains that his coffee is cold, I think she should say "good, then it won't burn you when I do this" and splash it in his face. (Of course, she'd then have to wash his clothes.) When she goes on a crash diet and runs herself ragged to fit in a costume to be in "the show," I can't look.

But when she's doing regular dumb stuff, like the one where she's trying to make money by baking bread and can't keep up with all the orders, I still laugh. And I still laugh when Ralph Kramden says he's going to send Alice to the moon and she just tells him to shut up.
 

Ralph Kramden was a total ignorant jerk and a blowhard. I couldn't stomach most of the episodes of that series especially because of his "To the moon, Alice! Bang, zoom!"

However, I wonder whether some special-interest group has ever done a study of stupid women vs stupid men in contemporary entertainment. I don't have the time or energy to quantify this, but I'm sure the results would be interesting. It would also be interesting to know whether the US or Mexico has the worse track record.
 

Great topic UA- I totally agree about LQNPA- that Rogelio storyline was really twisted although they tried to rehabilitate it with AP telling him he had to change. Frankly, I thought the kid was a more persuasive vehicle for persuading Roger of his pathological coping mechanisms.

In general I find some of this media genre really interesting on many levels, including the values suggested by the characters and storyline. IMO, TN stories reflect both modern "looking" characters melded into old canned storylines. This is fairly similar to US soaps. They are full of sexist messages as all of you have so eloquently listed above. However, the television industry has largely built sexist portrayals in various degrees during different generations. Makeup and clothes and virtue and aspirations and the reality for women achieving one's goals are all up for manipulation by writers and advertisers in response to what will draw the audience they want.

So why watch them? Because they tell me something about the media manuevers of another culture of TV makers. Sorry to borrow this UA,you called it well, but it kind of suggests many of us are Urban Anthropologists. Also, what makes it less exploitive to me as the recipient? I, as are many of my recap friends and lurkers, am well educated to have a critical mind and can say what I'm not buying about the portrayals AND I am not paying money to access it (like buying women's fashion mags). Even television I have to access for information (news) is filled with sexist spin - "what did Michelle and Ann wear to watch their husbands debate?"

What about the language lessons? It helps me with language AND the language tells me loads about people and the characters they are supposed to represent.

Finally, first and foremost, the oversized characterizations make for good natured humor (most of the time) and I thoroughly enjoy appreciating this and learning to write it myself!

Thanks for the opportunity to share my humble opinion and to learn from all of you!

Mena

PS: A great website that is involved in taking everyday action to help evolve the portrayal of women is "MissRepresentation". If you are interested in this topic and making a difference. It's easy to google.
 

UA - Yes, of course, how could I forget the importance of the relationships between Patti and Teresa in La Reina, one of my favorite TNs ever. It is not a typical TN in the sense that it's based on a contemporary novela. But it's a model in so many ways, IMHO -- tremendous acting, suspense, great location shooting, excellent characterizations, etc. Not my favorite topic, but a contemporary tale, well written and well done.

Perhaps gay characters could be a future discussion topic as someone suggested.
 

Carlos - Thanks for sharing the great clip. It's a cautionary tale for struggling students of all languages -- there are always words and elements of diction that make no sense!
 

Ralph Kramden...oh my...I've seen some of those shows on satellite TV. The way Ralph treated Alice was upsetting to me. He just seemed like a big brute So many things about that show seemed so depressing including the look of the apartment, etc. Alice always seemed depressed and downtrodden. I think I" missed" the comedy in that show. Do I understand correctly that it was a huge hit when it first aired?

Ralph isn't as bad as some of the jerks on the TNs, but he was no great prize, either.

Another Anon
 

Hello fellow telenovela enthusiasts! Long time lurker, first time poster. This is in reply to UA's comment about paedophilia in TN's. Although I've only been watching them for the past eighteen months, I can think of an instance where the subject was touched upon. In Alborada (watched last summer in reruns), Antonio, Arturo Peniche's character, strikes one as just a little bit "off". Clearly, he is burdened with some uncomfortable sexual hang up we can't readily identify. (Clearly, as he cannot cumplir with his wife, Lucero's Ippolita. Unlike TBLMOE :-)!) But he can with Perla, a prostitute. Eventually, he confesses to her that, as a child, he hed a "funny uncle". When he told his domineering mother, she accused him of being a sexual deviant, perverted enough to deliberately malign the character of his fine, upstanding abuser with his impure thoughts, etc., etc. You get the drift. So, ever since, he's been afflicted by some kind of excruciating Madonna/Whore complex...
Finally, I think that child sexual abuse is not used as a plotline becuase we can all agree that it is simply too distasteful and delicate a subject to be trivialized by the melodramtic treatment of pure escapist television.
...IMHO
Thanks for listening!
 

Gracias, Brujita, and welcome. I had forgotten that and I loved that novela.

I have been wondering whether the paedophile scandal in the Catholic church will ever be touched upon. Some of our novela priests were slightly dim but the majority have been splendid examples of what priests should be. The only evil ones have belonged to the Inquisition.

I do think that the general subject of paedophilia has been omitted from novelas because of how upsetting it is and because no network wants to lose ratings or markets over it. Back when Highlander was on the air (with a leading man hot enough to compete with our telenovios) homosexuality was not dealt with in it. That series was seen all over the world and I suspect there are many countries that would not have tolerated that subject then. They could have rejected individual episodes because it wasn't serialized, but that's not an option with a TN.

There are gay-themed networks in the US that have original programs for their target audience, but that doesn't address the issue of acceptance among the majority population.

However, I do agree that this subject deserves its own discussion. Let's do that next weekend.
 

Kelly: Actually, my comment about gravitas was tongue in cheek, but didn't make that clear. As you said, these are only soaps, but I do think that these stories do provide occasional opportunities for more serious commentary which is why I do not dismiss these stories (sometimes) as 'only' soaps.

Thank you for reminding me not to be rude.

Another Anon
 

This is a very interesting subject, one that often comes up in conversations about telenovelas here among my friends and I.

I do think there is alot of truth about what these stories show, I've dealt with many difficult attitudes from men at work and only this past week one of my coworkers kept complaining about women in general and making sexist remarks EVERY. SINGLE. DAY. I don't find the Por Ella Soy Eva work environment as exagerated actually and, unfortunately, I've seen even worse attitudes at work and especially in unions, the way some unions treat their female members make anything in PESE pale in comparison. Of course, Televisa is never going to deal with that muddy reality.

Anyway, besides that obvious attempt by Televisa to show misogyny and make a PSA about it, I agree that there's still alot of issues with the way telenovelas are usually written.

I think now telenovelas can be defined by the network they are being aired. Televisa, the biggest network in Mexico and the one where Univision's novelas come from, is very conservative. They have been doing these stories since the 1950's and even before as radionovelas since the 20's. They have a line from where very few producers dare to cross. The old producers back in the 80's and 90's they were more daring about their choices and tried to experiment, like in Colorina where the leading lady was a prostitute, but those were the days when ratings weren't that important because Televisa was the only network, internet didn't exist and cable tv wasn't available to the majority of the population, now producers tend to play it safe with the classic stories.

Networks that came later, like Azteca which appeared in the mid 90's and especially Cadena 3 which appeared in the 2000's have dared to go much farther than Televisa's stories have. Cadena 3 has no problem showing heroines with active sexual lives before meeting their galán or having same sex couples not only be present in their stories bot also having them being one of their main love stories.

These networks don't air in every part of the country yet, so putting their ratings against Televisa's can be tricky when you try to gauge the popularity of their programming. However, I've noticed that, while the idea of a novela is still Televisa's stories, my generation and the ones that are coming after are getting really into the stories that Cadena 3 is showing. Some of their novelas like Las Aparicio and Infames went crazy popular in big Metropolitan areas like Mexico City or Monterrey, the actors involved in those shows did mall tours that surprised everyone because the showing indicated a much bigger following than what the ratings were telling. I think that's because the network made the episodes are available in HD on youtube the next day so many people must have watched them there as nowadays people tend to watch more tv in their computer than in their tv.

Telenovelas are changing and evolving but the changes are not happening in Televisa because it goes against its own already successful formula, one that they don't have the necessity to update until the other networks grow enough to prove that these new storylines are the way to go. Besides, as I said, these new stories are popular among the big metropolitan areas, the rest of the country doesn't really feel as connected to the woes of the Aparicio women as much as they do, say, the Ana Paula's or the Maria something's out there.

And finally, about what is sold to other countries, as long as Televisa is the most powerful network here, they are the ones who will be more able to sell their novelas all over the world.

Jarocha
 

Travelling Lady mentioned Para Volver A Amar. It is a couple of years old, and I don't think it was ever shown in prime time in U.S. Uni is showing it now on Sunday mornings at 9. It follows about 6 women of different social classes dealing with sexism at home and in the workplace and supporting each other. Those wanting a change from the plot lines of our usual fare might want to check it out.
Plus, the actors include Paz y Begonia from Refugio, Adriano from Ella, Alonso from AB, Gael from AdP, and many more!
Clara
 

Clara- Yes, Uni showed PVAA last year at midnight. That's when many of us here wacthed it. It was very good and not the usual Televisa formula as Jarocha mentions.

Jarocha- Always good to hear your take on things-- being a young, professional woman in Mexico, who also happens to watch and enjoy tns.
 

Thanks, Jarocha! That was very interesting.
 

Very interesting. Azteca America kept trying to sell itself to the ad community a few years ago as being all over the US, but it isn't. Except for L.A. and Houston it only has low-power stations and isn't carried on all cable systems. They also don't promote themselves.

It will be very interesting to see what happens in 4 years when Univision's current rebroadcast contract with Televisa expires. Maybe they will work out a deal where they get the best of both networks' stuff.