Caray, Caray!

This was such an exciting episode! Especially the last bit - Cristóbal and Felipe versus Gasca and Francisco - YEAH!

Oh - that Don Luis is making real some progress by turning on all his charm, isn't he? Poor Martín - totally outclassed (pun!).

Audrey
 

Pobre Martín, he is so cute, but so intense. But, he really needs a young innocent novia.

Does he know that Hipólita was running away from her husband?
 

I've been getting a big kick out of the creative camera angles in this show. It's subtle enough to not be obnoxious - overall very well done.

Yesterday, I think, they did a bit where we were looking down at Luis with Hipólita, and then Marcos, from the point of view of Felipe sitting on his horse. I don't know how they managed it as they had several cuts back and forth to Felipe sitting on the horse - but it was VERY cool!

They do LOTS of very interesting camera positions. Watch for them!

Audrey
 

Yes, Martín - in this episode at least - knows that she is married, thus the offer to run away and pretend to be a married could. I forgot when he found out.

Audrey
 

Umm - that should be "married couple". (Sometimes the computer auto-spelling correction goes a bit haywire.)

Audrey
 

Audrey, yes, about the camera angles. It's beautifully shot overall and the sets & locations are quite sumptuous. I'm not so sure about downtown Cuencas—it looks a little weird and stagey with all the bizarre lamp posts and balustrades—but what do I know about a colonial village?

Can I even express my enthusiasm for all that horseback riding? I love Felipe's style & posture, so correct...and even Gasca with his menacing black cape and hair that looks like devil's horns
 

Is there anything sexier than a man on a horse, especially FC? I was really interested how Hipólita was going to get on the horse, she did it sensibly, astride.
 

Yes - that was a good vocab word for this (and last) episode - a horcajadas - astride. And what a voluminous skirt to accomplish it!

Audrey
 

I always love the vocab words.
 

I love that practical, tomboyish aspect of Hipólita. She's very modern in that respect. My grandmother who grew up in the 1880s, as the worshipped only girl among a gang of heroic brothers, was the same. But eventually even she was cowed by convention (and I don't believe she ever rode a horcajadas despite being an accomplished horsewoman. Women had few opportunities either within society or without. And Carla Estrada does a terrific job of showing us some of these terrible repercussions. As Catalina said to Ernesto LaG. "A person has to accept her fate."
 

Yes, Hip is a bit of a wild child. Do you remember that right after the mystery boinking, she got very chatty with ''her husband'' [who was actyally Luis] and told him that she used to go skinnydipping at abuela's finca ? When Luis asked her to go riding with him, didn't she tell him that she had taught herself to ride and didn't know how to ride astride ? Didn't Luis reply that it was better to ride her way ?
 

Yes, susanlynn. All that, I remember it too. I really love her character even though there is a bit too much sniffling.
 

I love this series and the characters, but on second look some of the costumes look so wrong. Now if I had the credentials, I'd apply to work there and get the costumes right for future novelas.

Did I hear them correctly that Francisco wanted to kill little Raphael?
 

I read in some of the original comments that the costumes are actually correct for the time period - about 1800. That they are consistent with paintings from the late viceroyal period of Mexico - which is where we are.

I think part of what is going on is that we are seeing some people (Diego, for example) still clinging to older fashions consistent with the aristocracy, and others like Luis and his men dressing in the more modern style that came into fashion around this time. Luis and his men are more modern in their thinking and scientific experiments and business endeavors as well.

There is definitely a theme of old (traditional) world versus new (modern) world running throughout this novela. It's one its many charms.

Audrey
 

P.S. - No, I didn't catch that Francisco wanted to kill Rafael.
 

@UA: It's the costumes that bugged me most when I first saw this novela. Not so much what I thought was inaccuracy (because, as it turns out, they actually did research them) but the materials and construction details. All the fabrics look synthetic and the lace is quite cheesy & nylon-y. I know they put rows of buttons down the back, but you can't help but notice the zipper. The fit seems a little off. And I'm not sure married women would have been wearing their hair down the way they are depicted here, although I love all the curly hair extensions. Modesta's costumes are great though, as is her hairdo. I think she must be wearing a fat-suit, because she's really not that big of a woman.

I have somewhere on tape an interview program that aired after the series finished (the first time) and they show segments of the costume shop with design sketches and reference prints of paintings of the era. And I think what Audrey says may hold true about the old vs. new culture. But someone with real expertise may want to weigh in on this.
 

Hi all...I don't know beans about historical accuracy on the costumes but am always amazed by the amount of cleavage displayed.

Were the gowns of these supposedly chaste women really cut that low? Seems at odds with the strictures on behavior.

And did want to agree with whoever noted the other day how beautifully Felipe sits a horse. That shot in the opening credits fascinates me as much as Colunga's stellar abs. Felipe looks like he was born to ride. And as an older fellow, he appeals to me more romantically that even our luscious galan. I'm quite taken with fellows at the thinning hair stage of life, God bless 'em.

And I think I can finish up the whole novela this weekend and then settle back and watch and comment the dailies with you all.
 

@JudyB: Apparently the necklines were that low with corsets appropriately cut to support the whole thing. It was supposed to look neo-classical. And great ladies are depicted in portraits this way, but in actual daily use, the "chaste women" usually covered their bosoms with an embroidered cloth or lacy fichu. Here is a link describing some of the transitions in the style of the time. Or a quick google search for "historical costume, regency" would yield lots of visuals.

Oh, and I was wrong about the long hair. There is a famous self-portrait of Mme. Vigée-LeBrun with her hair down.
 

JudyB - you're way ahead of me. I'm at 69. I'm trying to finish it before we hit the road in a week. Once we are on the road I won't have high-speed Internet that often, so I don't know how much I'll be able to watch on line. Also not sure what I'll be able to get off satellite in terms of the Spanish channels. I'll probably go into major withdrawal LOL! I've been watching TNs for just over a year now.

Audrey
 

Judyb~~~Even though I love Felipe [Alejandro Tomasi] as a fine actor, he does not do it for me. I love seeing the hombres on their horses. I noticed that Luis ususlly only holds onto the reins with one hand. YIKES. I also noticed that sometimes when the guys dismount , they have trouble getting their feet out of the stirrups. In fact, their is a funny scene from the bloopers of Amor Real where FC can't get his foot out of the stirrup. FC always seems so goodnatured in the bloopers. I like a guy who can laugh at himself .
 

Not that far ahead Audrey...chapter 76 is where I am. But I may pull a marathon this weekend after the yardwork. After that all I want to do is take a shower and sit, sit, sit.

LXV...thanks for the clarification. Not many "fichus" in sight here but I supposed they have to provide some eye candy for the male viewers after all.
 

On the décolletage: my understanding is that flaunting cleavage, at least among high-society women, had been going on for centuries. It may not have ended until the Victorian era when it became fashionable to be a prude. Yes, a more modest woman would wear a fichu. The US with the strong religious (Puritan, etc.) heritage may have been an exception to this flaunting. New Spain did not share this US heritage for modesty.

The 1790 to 1810 period involved a massive transition in costume. There seems to be some kind of wide-spread rejection of the excessively ornate aristocratic costume prior to the French Revolution, especially for men. I'm sure due to the political implications (the guillotine!). It probably became less desirable to flaunt class differences.

By the time Napoleon came into power, a whole new "Grecian" look came into fashion among ladies and this spread across Europe. Men started wearing more simply tailored clothes in subdued colors, and eventually full length pantaloons became replaced breeches and stockings.

I have also mentioned that men's hair styles went from long to short. Before about 1810, men of high rank wore long hair as a sign of their rank. In the British Navy the officers had long hair worn in a military queue (a tight braid) usually clubbed (i.e. turned back up on itself and tied). The regular grunts had short hair. You'll notice in paintings of Napoleon that he wore his hair short - this then became the style among men of high rank.

Anyway - you only need to looks at paintings of Marie Antoinette circa 1785 and paintings of the new Bonaparte regime 1804 to see the massive changes over only a 20 year period.

Audrey
 

By the way, if you want to see some awesome historical drama from this period with great costuming, check out the Horatio Hornblower series. For us sailing fans, the ships are also fabulous and the portrayal of life in the British Royal Navy incredibly realistic. I love nautical stuff from this period.

Audrey
 

Audrey~~~I think that looong ago when we were watching Pasion, someone mentionned Horatio Hornblower. I've never seen it, but others here had. I forget who brought it up...perhaps Judyb or Carlos or Schoolmarm. I love historical dramas.
 

Yes, I noticed that Marcos got his foot stuck in the stirrup. At times like those, I'll bet the actors wish that pointy-toed cowboy boots were historically accurate; they're great for navigating stirrups.

About men in stockings. I've heard that it was the masculine version of a plunging neckline. Men couldn't wear an unbuttoned shirt to show off a strong chest, nor a sleeveless shirt to show off big biceps. So they wore stockings to show off their muscular legs. "See how verile I am?"

I didn't know that long hair was a mark of social class. I wonder if it was to demonstrate that they didn't "get their hands dirty." A woman valued pale white skin and tender hands to show that she didn't work outdoors and didn't do cleaning chores, etc. I wonder if, on the men's side, laborers kept their hair short because it was hot, distracting, and sometimes dangerous during heavy labor. So the upper classes would wear long hair to say, "See? I never do heavy labor."
 

Paula~~~Hmmm...interesting. I'll have to share that information with Hub. Just this morning , we had a discussion on the short coach's shorts he likes to wear. He loves them , but his daughters and I are always trying to point out that guys are wearing kneelength shorts now. I am trying to get him to only wear them at home..not out and about. He has some of the longer shorts, but he prefers the short ones. Maybe I can get him to wear those leggings.
 

Yes - long hair on upper class men was a sign that they did not have to do manual labor. The field laborers wore their hair short for practical reasons.

Showing the calves: Well, stockings with knee-breeches was standard male wear for a couple of centuries, up until the end of the 1700s. If you look at paintings of our Founding Fathers you will see silk knee-breeches with white stockings as their formal dress. Even in the early 1800s, knee-breeches were worn when traditional formal dress was required.

And showing off the calves? Definitely. Men did like to show them off - even some of the fancy bows in the 1700s were termed "show a leg" as the right(?) leg was pointed forward as part of the bow. Some men even wore fake calves under their stockings to make themselves appear more manly.

Audrey
 

I'm wondering if the problem with the stirrups is, the boots are period but the stirrups are not.
 

Wow! I love this great discussion of period costumes and clothing customs of the day. Thanks ladies. This is great.

As for the show, I am having just as much of a petulant tantrum as Martin. He should be told why Luis thinks he's first in line to Hip. I'd be ticked too. I do love that now Luis knows for sure that baby Rafa is his and is trying to take him under his protection. Can't wait to see what happens tomorrow with the standoff at Francisco's.
 

Vivi, I think discretion and obedience are the issues here. If Martín were told, he could blab—to the detriment of Don Luís' reputation. But more to the point, his father is pissed that he's so rambunctious and hasn't learned his place in society. Which, as Gasca told that nosy Parker Francisco, "I don't question the motives of my superiors. My job is to follow orders." A lot of the subtext is about putting people in their places in a society much more codified than ours (although scratch the surface, and you'll find we're not so different, just seems that way). That's my take anyway. The "not telling" seems appropriate to me, unlike other novelas (TdA,duh) where it's used as a plot extender.

When I was growing up, I was constantly told: "that's none of your business, it's for grown-ups" And this was considered completely proper.
 

Going beyond LXV's rationale. It's more than "Bow to your betters and shut up." Martin has been told, time and again, "Luis has his reasons." By his father, by Marcos, and by Luis. But he won't accept that. He throws a tantrum because he wants to know what they know. Like when the press wants to publish things even if they're a risk to national security.

And why won't Luis tell him? First, because it would get back to Hipo, and she'd hate him because he's the mystery boinker. But second, it's for Hipo's honor. She was boinking someone other than her husband, and he rightly feels that's no one else's business.

At one point Luis even gave Felipe permission to tell Martin, but Felipe told Luis it's an obedience issue. And really, a person who is incapable of obeying rightful authority is out of line. Even Luis must bow to authority - his responsibility to his men. He could turn Martin over to the guards and his own name would be cleared re: the guard's death. But he takes care of his men instead of taking care of himself.
 

I see your point, but as for Hip's honor, once Marcos was told, that went out the window. If there is anyone who would fight to protect Hip's honor, and make sure that story was not spread far and wide, it's Martin. He would totally not blame Hip for the mystery boinking. He would likely be ticked at Luis for doing it, but not Hip since she was the one decieved. I think it's even more annoying to Martin, and to me, that Marcos of all people knows the secret about Hip, but not him-- the man who met her first, took care of her, and is the man she trusts. It's precisely because he puts Hip's wlefare above all else that he would likely take her out of the dark about what's happening. I'm not so pleased about Luis hiding the truth from Hip to save his own butt. He's being a coward.
 

Marcos es una tumba, no one doubts his loyalty or propriety. Martín is a loose cannon, and a wilful one at that (but so adorable & tragic).

The other tumba is Modesta. The lady just takes it all in and her lips are sealed. Doña Juana never has to ask her to keep it to herself the way Doña Isabel asked Marina.
 

Great discussion !!!... Proving that this is a thinking man's/woman's telenovela. Remember at the beginning when Luis was at the inn on the way back to Mexico talking to Felipe about the mystery boinking incident and Marcos joined them at the table ? Luis asked if Marcos had overheard their conversation. When Marcos said that he had, Luis made him swear that he wouldn't tell anyone. Luis hasn't been around Martin for awhile , and Martin is all wound up with revolutionary ideas and puppy lust for Hip, so Luis does not trust him. Martin is a hothead and a wild cannon when compared with the loyal, obedient Marcos who seems totally devoted to and appreciative of Luis and Felipe. Martin has shown no devotion to Luis. Instead , he has often been disrespectful and willful to both Luis and Felipe making Felipe embarrassed and frustrated . Felipe has a deeper relationship to Luis than simply patron/employee. He is Luis's trusted advisor, counselor, and even father figure.
 

LXV~~~HA...We must have posted at the same moment. I just read your comment. Two minds and but a single thought, verdad ?
 

Maybe there is an element of sibling rivalry in Martin's feelings about Luis because Felipe does treat Luis like a son in many ways. Felipe is the only father figure Luis has ever had since both his father and uncle died when Luis was a baby. I think we can say that Felipe's and Cristobal's good influence have made Luis the man he is along with Tia Isabel's loving devotion to him.
 

Great comments on period dress. I'm unschooled, but fascinated by changes in fashion over the centuries (at least in Western Europe and the New World). I have several good books on the history of costume.

The mixture of fashions on these shores might be due to a time-lag by a few years before reaching the Americas--as well as the influence of religious beliefs on modesty of dress.

Long ago, I used to be amused that it took about 5 years for NY high fashions to reach Walmart and catch on (hair styles, too--crew cuts on men or long hair and sideburns).

It would not be surprising, then, that there would be a mixture of fashions among the well-to-do.

It was interesting to learn here that the aristocracy was the last to adapt to trousers. However, we do see butlers in British country house movies wearing mid-18th C. frocks long after their employers began to wear late 19th C. fashions.

Changing Topic. All the comments regarding Martin vs. the world of Luis are so valid. I really don't think Luis is being such a coward as being too calculating.

He doesn't want to lose Hipo by telling her the truth too early. He has heard her say she hates the mystery boinker, even while wanting to know who he is, just to get him to recognize the child and help her financiallly.

Luis desperately wants her to fall in love with him first, even knowing that as long as their respective partners live, they can only be amantes.

He has too much respect for her social position to want her as his querida, but doesn't want to lose her to anyone like Martin, who might have convinced her to run away with him.

Finding out that Rafael is his child makes the original simple plan of action to keep her near him more difficult. Now it is very important to keep her near AND recognize Rafael as his child without alienating her. It's going to be fun to see how he manages that.

Changing Topic. Hipo and horseback riding. Susanlynn--I thought I heard her say, that she had taught herself to ride, but didn't know how to ride side-saddle (like most chaste ladies had to do). Both horses were saddled with regular saddles--rather than one regular and one side-saddle, so it was obvious she would have to ride astride. She didn't refuse to go riding with him because of it.

I couldn't hear Luis's exact words back to her, but it sounded like he approved of her sitting astride--then we see her mount the horse astride and handling it very well.
Dona Nube
 

Dona Nube, I think the conversation went something like this (from memory):

L: Do you know how to ride?
H: I only learned at the the farm. I only know to ride astride.
L: Good, it's more comfortable that way.

I got a chuckle out of it. Of course, it was considered very unladylike to ride astride, but out in the boonies it might be the only option. Side saddle was very unsafe anyway.

Audrey
 

Good site on the history of saddles

http://www.your-guide-to-gifts-for-horse-lovers.com/saddle-history.html
 

Ahoy all! Sheesh, I finally got a chance to catch up on the past two episodes after entertaining an out of town guest for a few days. Great comments everyone. I very much enjoy the quotidian details of this telenovela and I find myself obsessing over their historical accuracy, etc. Everyone's comments and insights are thoroughly enjoyable.

I am noticing so much more this time around. When Luis and Hipolita went to the neighbor's farm to purchase a lamb and some cheese he also purchased some "aguamiel". Since I'd never heard of it I looked it up and wikipedia actually has an entry on it. Aguamiel is the sap of the maguey plan; it has medicinal qualities and when fermented it is a beverage. It is used to make pulque. Who knew? Well, some of you surely knew but I didn't.

Great screen shot on this one, thanks Carlos.
 

Tks Cap'n Sylvia, I enjoy hearing about these interesting things, just wish I could remember them.
 

Interesting, I found this. The maguey is known, at least by me, as the century plant. It is an agave, but different from the one used for tequila.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agave
 

Variopinta, that is a very interesting read. Thank you for the link. Coincidentally enough it turns out I have three maguey products in the house, agave syrup, mezcal and some cans of pulque. I recently purchased the pulque on a whim because I had never seen it before; it's a very odd drink. The mezcal is wonderful and is like an aged scotch.
 

I wonder if I can find pulque here in Florida, I'll try anything once.

I also use agave nectar in margaritas, tastes like honey. From what I understand mezcal is from the agave, but tequila only comes from the blue agave. So I thought mezcal was poor man's tequila, I'm surprised it tastes like scotch.
 

Tequila ia also a controlled name - it can only legally be called "tequila" if it comes from the state of Jalisco and some limited surrounding areas.

Audrey
 

The Mezcal that I purchased at BevMo wasn't cheap. It tastes like a peaty single malt, similar to Laphroaig. I think the plant is smoked first, then bottled and aged in oak.

I got the pulque because we had a discussion about it a couple of years ago that piqued my interest. It's hard to compare it to anything because it's very unique. It's kind of like a beer but it is milky-looking and a bit sour. It's actually kind of refreshing when it's chilled.

By the way Audrey, thanks again for doing tonight's recap. I know you must be crazy busy getting ready for your trip. Just email it to me when you're done and I'll post it for you.
 

Now I found this site about mezcal/mescal, the one with the worm.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mezcal
 

Thanks Variopinta. I just read the wikipedia article and it's very interesting. I don't think I had ever read it. It will give me something to ponder next time I pour myself a shot of mezcal. The article says it is challenging to use as a mixer because of its smoky flavor. I certainly found that to be true and generally prefer to drink it straight. The bottle I have is a brown, aged mezcal and it has no worm in it. Frankly, a worm would gross me out.