Caray, Caray!

UA - What a great topic!

I agree that the novelas are becoming more violent in general, with scenes of torture and sexual violence more frequent. My guess is simply that there's a demand for it, as evidenced in the popularity of novelas that are really about crime and violence. It seemed in keeping with La Reina del Sur; not so in most of our more traditionally-themed novelas.

I hated seeing Camila suffer in AB, but also felt that it was in keeping with the character of Bruno to torment her as it was in keeping with Leo's character to violently abuse Luzma. There's a sinister feel to much in this novela. Did we need to see so much of it? Certainly not and given the generally strong quality of the writing, a better way might have been found to tell the story, underline the character traits of the principals and keep the pace moving.

Most of my favorite novelas of the past managed, e.g., La Otra, Amor Real, CS, La mentira, to tell a story without displaying violent scenes, though certainly circumstances of violence were suggested. I guess in the end it's a question of subtlety. Novelas are finally morality tales with good and evil starkly drawn: there's going to be violence. It's a question of what's shown and whether the intent is to draw the viewer into the violence as part of the entertainment.

I have never seen a novela that felt so gratuitously violent and sadistic as Fuego en la sangre. Again, the violence and sadism became the entertainment, making me wonder about the audience as much as the writers.
 

I'm not sure I should even try to address this interesting question, since I haven't been watching unabridged novelas all that long. My first was En Nombre del Amor, which I think I saw in 2008. I almost stopped watching it because I found the level of psychological violence so high. Nothing that I've seen in Amor Bravío--not Luzma's rape, nor the actions of Bruno, Alonso, Isadora, or Dionisio--has affected me nearly as strongly as the physical and, especially, psychological violence wreaked by Carlota in ENDA.

Oddly enough, though I'm normally not a fan of violence, the most violent telenovela I've ever seen is also far and away the very BEST telenovela I've ever seen: La Reina del Sur. Its subject matter--the world of narcotraficantes--almost requires violence for a realistic portrayal. This made some scenes almost too painful to watch, but even so, the production as a whole was absolutely stellar.
 

It seems rape and abuse storylines have always been a part of tns, as far as what I have seen (in reruns) and read. I think that some tns have actually gotten better about how a person should deal with it. I think Amor Bravio is a good example of showing women stand up to this and learn to take back their power.

I didn't find the Camila/Bruno scene over the top, because as Traveling Lady said, it is totally in keeping with Bruno's character. He gets off on making women afraid. But he is shown as being a pathetic man, and his scenes with his victims are not in the least bit appealing or sexy. With Leoncio and Luzma-- we never actually saw any of the rape. It's a testament to the actress that we understood exactly what happened to her and feel like we saw the violence happen to her, although we didn't. This rape story has been better handled than any other I've seen in a tn.

I saw bits of Fuego en la Sangre, and I saw too much of Triunfo del Amor, and in both of those there was too much time spent on showing the sick sexual pleasure the male villain got from rough and/or forced sex. Same actor as well, I think. Both instances felt like the director was getting too much pleasure showing it.

I saw parts of La Esposa Virgen and in that one there was a rapist just running loose raping women left and right with no kind of punishment or legal recourse. I was disgusted by that. I don't think he ever faced charges for those sex crimes. Same thing in Soy tu Duena-- the rapist of the young girl went on to commit many other crimes and we never saw him get accused and get convicted for that particular crime.

I guess I'm fine with these storylines if it truly moves the story forward, if it's not glamorized/sexualized, if there is true justice given to the victim/survivor, and if the survivor comes out stronger in the end.
 

Very interesting topic, UA.

I definitely think violence has increased since twenty years ago. I have not seen a lot of TNs, but 20+ years ago I watched a few and then none until the last few months. There are huge changes – some nice ones like the overall level of production and sophistication. I haven’t seen a wall shake when a door was slammed yet, and that used to happen all the time. I don’t remember them being filmed on the gorgeous locations like they are now, and I absolutely love that. And, of course, the acting and writing for Amor Bravio is exceptionally good. But what jumped out at me more than anything, right away, is that now they are much more explicit, both in the steamy sex scenes (fine with me!) and violence, blood and gore.

I thought the rape of Luzma, although sad, was handled tastefully and was necessary to the story. She is a sympathetic character, but not a main one. Some how that makes it a bit easier to have something horrible happen to her, and the way everyone rallied around her was reassuring.

I thought the physical and sexual abuse of Camila was much more gratuitous. We are much more invested in her well-being since she is the heroine and we would have understood that she needed to be rescued [i]cuanto antes[/i] without seeing that yucky stuff.

I am wondering if the audience really prefers this? From the producers point of view, does it mainly just help hook viewers by supplying juicy material for the advances? I would think that by far most of the audience is female, but does anyone know about that? How many men watch TNs?

 

Interesting topic, UA. I think villains doing dastardly deeds to female protagonists goes back to the Perils of Pauline and her being strapped to the railroad tracks!

I agree, Juanita, that in En Nombre del Amor the terrible things Carlota did to her niece and her sister were worse than some things I've seen males do. I think she personally killed 4 or 5 people.

I'm a Telemundo watcher, and the current one, Corazón Valiente, has shown multiple scenes of some good guys being strung up for torture by villains that are jealous and/or just plain sadistic. This one also has a narco twist to it.

And La Reina del Sur had a rape scene [that was also in the book it was based on] and some very cruel murders. Of course, in one cruel scene it was La Reina herself who was getting back at some bad guys. But it was a terrific telenovela, one of the very best.

I realize I haven't really addressed the question as to whether they're getting worse. I think they probably are, but maybe all things shown on TV are getting more graphic.
 

I agree that Luzma's rape in Amor Bravío was portrayed, without even showing it at all, in a manner that made the horror of rape seem very real, and not at all erotically appealing.

The sexual violence in Fuego en la Sangre, on the other hand, was handled pornographically.

I haven't seen many earlier novelas (in fact the earliest I saw was La Otra, in reruns on Telefutura,) so can't judge as to whether or not there has been an general escalation in either the quantity of violence or the way it's presented.

Karamy
 

Fuego en la Sangre was the next version after Pasion de Gavilanes, which was less violent and had a much lower body count. To some extent I think the high body count in FELS was about the choice of actor for the role of Fernando. Gabriela was also much worse in FELS because she was emotionally manipulative and sadistic whereas in PdG she was just a garden-variety snob.

I have wondered whether that was also a general difference between Columbian and Mexican productions.

The murder of Ruth was certainly torture porn; one would think they were watching a snuff film at that scene.

I sometimes think that we shouldn't sugar-coat any of this but there is a line one shouldn't cross. I'm not sure where that line is.
 

My 2 cents, for whatever it's worth. I can't comment on telenovelas 'getting' more violent, since I've only been watching for going on 5 years.

Certain types of violence are necessary to move the story ahead, while a lot of it could be accomplished off screen. The scene that revolted most of us in what otherwise would have been a PG-13 labeled show was in El Talisman, the very second episode in which a pregnant woman was kicked and punched and kicked on screen until she ultimately lost her baby and her mind. We never forgave the writers/directors for that.

We have had discussions in the past on violence towards women physical and psychological. This seems to be a theme that writers favor. Perhaps with the majority of followers women, the writers believe they are more invested in what happens to other women and how it would affect them. I agree with how Luzma's rape was handled in this story--and is still being handled with care. I agree with Vivi about the rape in STuD--but Illum. was threatened about telling anyone, and didn't for a long time--as was Luzma.

Stories that have gangs, gang violence, drug trafficking, etc. as themes, are not ones I would find myself watching anyway, so I can't make any comments on escalation.

One thing, though, if you are going to 'do' violence, then, do it right--I'm tired of guys beating the sh*t out of each other and the only evidence is a little discoloration on the cheek and a little bit of blood running down their chins. Or someone getting shot in the chest has only a dollar-sized spot of blood on the front. (If I sound contradictory, it may be. I'm really a pacifist at heart. But I believe in realism, even if I don't really want to see it.)

I'm fed up with high body counts accomplished by drops of poison in a drink. Eva Luna suffered from that syndrome. And almost laughable when it was regularly administered by one person.

A different approach to the theme is taking into account the acceptance of violence committed by someone we know is evil and wants to get people out of the way--we expect it. When it is out of character or unexpected, it's a jolt. Remember when Nesme shot the dwarf in CME? It came completely out of the blue and unnecessary. It gave me a jolt.

I've been watching Dama y Obrero on line (an excellent dramedy from Chile with carefully chosen violence). There was a shooting near the beginning that was completely unexpected, for both the killer and the victim--although it was premeditated. It affected the killer (and me) tremendously post-fact.

What unnerves me totally is scenes of torture. What Hissy did to Leo, although we didn't see or know what had happened until later was almost too much for me (even though he deserved it). It still bothers me to think about it.

Trav/lady--Your first comment is what got me thinking, though I only saw three of the four tns you mentioned. So, as with movies in general, are we a society becoming inured, desensitized and used to torture, sexual violence, aggressive behavior, war casualties, sadism, self-inflicted physical harm and the whole gammut of psychological damage in books, movies and television news and shows?

Not sure where I'm going with this, but I have to stop and recall that fairy tales were not G rated, so I guess we've had violence in childrens literature and adult literature since the ancient Greeks were writing plays, so there's nothing new about it in telenovelas. What is escalating is the realistic depiction of same on screen. Again, I'm not saying I like it.

 

The general public is slowly becoming desensitized to seeing violence, so the entertainment industry feels they have to ramp it up, just to keep up.

In an era where violence and killing are sold as entertainment in the form of video games to children and young people, it is frightening to me that the youth are becoming desensitized. (ref: recent news events in CT) Movies aren't much better, where graphic killing has become the norm and little is left to the imagination.

I've only been watching telenovelas for ten years, so cannot really comment on the violence factor. The first few years of watching, I watched the daytime Limavelas, which really had little violence, perhaps because they were daytime presentations. The violence may be in prime time 'novelas to hold the male audience? Just a thought.

ITA w/Anita. Fairy tales, etc., are violent, but left to one's imagination. Having to see it played out in grisly technicolor is a whole 'nother thing.
 

I think the violence is more explicit today but there's always been violence in telenovelas. There's also less blood today than back in the 90's, characters bleed less than before when they get shot (compare Fausto's death in Cañaveral de Pasiones to Augusto's death in Abismo de Pasión) and we don't get to see things like decapitations and body parts (which were no problem during La Antorcha Encendida from 1996).

I remember alot of violence in novelas I saw growing up but you didn't get very explicit scenes. I remember Itatí Cantoral's character in Dos Mujeres Un Camino being kidnapped and raped by the son of the villain but we didn't get to see much of that, they just implied what happened and the actress's acting made it clear. In Marimar, her grandparents are burned alive at night, that was horrible. In Tres Mujeres, a more recent Telenovela from the year 2000, one of the three female leads gets beaten and raped and the other gets killed in the shower before the end. There was also Te Amaré En Silencio from the 80's and Valentina from the 90's where the main couples get killed after their weddings by the villain. In El Maleficio, from th 80's, Erika Buenfil's character gets also kidnapped and raped by the son of the villain, who has a pact with the devil, and she ends up pregnant and is later forced to marry her rapist, her boyfriend (played by Ed Yañez) is murdered by the rapist too and she ends up rasing the child alone when the bad guys die but we are hinted that there's something eerie about him too. I could go on and on with examples but that's why I think the big change from today is the way those scenes are shot today.

It also depends on the producer/director team. Fuego en la Sangre was made by Salvador Mejía so I don't expect any quality in it. I've seen pieces of Pasión de Gavilanes but I didn't like it because I saw the original Las Aguas Mansas, which I thought was amazing, and I was upset at the changes: like the 40's noir setting being changed to a ranch present setting or the change in storylines and characters which I had put the blame on Liliana Abud but it seems came from this version.

In Las Aguas Mansas my favorite character was Melissa Ferrer but from what I've read her character was decimated in Fuego en la Sangre, she was played by Ninel Conde (what a fall from grace after being played by Maria Elena Döering in LAM) and basically morphed into one with another character named Rosario, and she DIED. In LAM she ended up with her love Fernando, an interesting grey character (so was she) who was turned into a psycho, killer, rapist in Fuego. Fernando was married to Sofía but they didn't love each other and they didn't have intimacy because she had been raped years before, something she kept hidden. Fernando tried to make things work in his marriage even though he fell for Melissa and meanwhile she had a thing with Franco, who idolized her. Franco ended up with Sarita in Fuego but they both died in LAM, so I guess that was nice for them. Franco deserved to die in LAM since he married an older lady for her money and tried to poison her but she poisoned him before, she had actually accumulated her money by marrying rich husbands and killing them, she found out Franco's plans and made their servant put the poison in his drink but he also locked her up with Franco's body and left, she ended up taking the poison herself and lied next to his body to die. Sarita died earlier of her heart condition, Franco never loved her. The bad guy in LAM, Camilo Montero, a gangster who killed the parents of the Reyes' brothers and marries Doña Gabriela for her money and to manipulate her, doesn't exist in Fuego. Ruth, who is in love with Juan, is not evil and falls in love and marries Damián Ferrer, Melissa's brother. In Fact, neither Ruth, nor Fernando, nor Gabriela are evil in LAM, they never murder, nor torture, nor rape anybody and they are all alive and happy by the end.

Jarocha



 

Doris, ITA.

I was also thinking that the violence was meant to appeal to male viewers.
 

That's what I thought when the narcotrafficante stories began. Although novelas have more female appeal, they are more evenly balanced by gender viewership than the US soaps ever were.
 

Jarocha--Thank you for your comments on the older novelas.

UA--Thank you for putting up this theme. I guess we answered the question. Carolina and Doris, ITA--Yes; and it's a guy thing.

UA--When are you planning to do the bodus interruptus one?

Everyone's comments were interesting and insightful. I love these weekend Extras.
 

I have to do some photo searches for the bodas interrupti. I'll have to get that going tomorrow because Friday I go to the opera again. If anyone has suggestions for that, please e-mail them to me.
 

What are the rules for the interruption? Temporary, complete derailment, or either? Does it have to be the boda of one of the leads, both of them, anybody, or any of the above?
 

Still fairly new to TNs, but I was witness to the awful El Tal violence that Anita already mentioned. It seems the main thing that accomplished was to turn away viewers before they had a chance to see it for the (unintended) comedy that it was. No wonder it had to move to the noontime Slot of Shame. We despise Pigorio to this day.
 

Any lead or supporting characters and it doesn't have to be permanent.
 

UA, you suggested that people email suggestions to you for the bodas interrupti, but how do we find your email address? I went to your Blogger page but didn't see an email link.
 

I just changed my profile for today. If anyone can think of some of these, please e-mail me.

I wish there was a way to conceal my e-mail address from anyone who doesn't actually post to the blog.
 

I've been watching since Amor Real and it seems that a rape is something that the writers are required to put in since even though it is either not necessary to the story, or needed to explain some aspect of the story whether or not the actions of the characters or the law makes sense, ie. marrying your rapist.

It's like they need to create drama and they don't know how to do it without this bit of violence, although Refugio managed it just fine. Maybe all the beating up and narco stories will take over for the violence against women specifically. Is this an improvement?

Kelly
 

I also have been watching telenovelas for more than twenty years and I remember seeing ugly/intense/tough scenes in Brazilian/etc telenovelas before (even in the 90's). But I always considered the Mexican ones being less graphic and more fairytale-like.

This is what changed lately - while the stories are still over the top and melodramatic fables, the tough scenes are getting more and more violent. It's like watching an HBO show - without the complex scripts and characters.
 

I've only been watching novelas for a few years myself, but I wonder if a case couldn't be made for a rise in general violence and darkness/grimness, not just the graphic we're-wallowing-for-shock-value variety. Not that folks didn't occasionally wallow back in the day (Rubi), just that it's much more of a go-to now (Alguien te mira, almost all of Mariana's story in El Talisman, and so on).
 

Raquela's final in Velo de Novia is the most gruesome crap I have ever seen in my life. I shudder everytime and I get a jolt everytime I see the leg crushing scene. Ouchie but she was a grade-A+ POS the whole novela so it was ALOMST inevitable.