Caray, Caray!

Good points, UA. This might be why telenovela audiences and ratings are waning.
 

I am so much more forgiving of the machismo in AcT because I firmly believe the ladies are going to come into their own.

I tried QTPD for one week and couldn't stand it. I've lurked in the comments and read that there have been 3 rapes. Seriously? Crazy.
 

"Although I know that the originals of these stories were written decades ago, new versions should be re-examining this stuff and updating it better."

Exactly! With the more subtle details as well, like how few women are cast in the smaller roles when it's a position of authority. Am I meant to believe that there are NO women police officers, doctors, lawyers, judges? The only time one shows up its when she's there to be a love interest.

Y ya basta with the protagonista getting a degree...and then spending the rest of the show doing NOTHING with it and basically doing nothing at all except pursuing a galan who's busy treating her like dirt.
 

Sara- There have actually be 4 rapes in that one. Three notches on Fausto's rape belt. One on Lucio's. All four rapes have gone unpunished with barely a bat of the eyelash from the writers or characters. It's disgusting. That tn so far, although it has some really interesting plot points, and a great cast, is reveling a bit too much in the machismo of main male characters. There is no counter balance with strong women at all. The three successful years of being a mayor by one of the few strong female characters was glossed over in a time passage sequence, so we never feel the effect of her success or see it in action. It was just a brief interlude, before going back to the "real" story of the macho men behaving badly.

I can't say the same for Sombra. Although the rape has yet to be punished, we have seen and felt the effects on the heroine and her mother and aunt, and the rape remains very present as a ticking time bomb if revealed. (Unlike in Perdone.) The writers don't seem to have the same love for Severiano, as the writers in Perdone have for Fausto. You can tell they are as eager to see Sever fail and be exposed as we are. I also don't feel like the writers have such a lack of respect for the women and their intelligence as they do in Perdone.
 

One thing I tend to forget is that Telerisa produces their telenovelas to sell to other countries. These might be countries where the standards about which we are complaining still exist. Women there don't have the opportunities or rights that we have. I perceive that a lot of cultural standards in Mexico are different, for the majority of the population, from here in the U.S., starting with the patriarchal standards...

The "period" telenovelas are easier for me to watch because times were different and it is easier for me to swallow the sexism, etc. because times were different, women were more oppressed, and I don't have to suspend disbelief quite as often.
 

On ACT they are dealing with machismo realistically IMO. Viewerville is supposed to be upset with Facundo for objecting to Maria working outside the home and be aware that Isa is manipulating macho foolishness. Also, it's not all black and white. While Facundo wants Maria to stay traditional, he also wants his daughter to get a good higher education presumably so she can do more than take care of a home. All of this, I can take and enjoy.

I couldn't keep with QTPD because Fausto has raped Renata several times and, though she is now middle-aged and supposed to be smart, she still falls for his cons. If Renata were out for revenge and on to Fausto's lies, I probably would be watching. And all the chicks want him -- please.
 

Niecie- ITA with your comment on ACT.
 

UA,this subject is long over due. Thanks for bringing it up. QTPD is one prime example of sexism gone wrong. I thought the whole idea of rewrites was to make the story more adaptable to modern times. Today women can be whatever they choose to be. Is this still cultural in South America to oppress women? I am only asking because the TNs originate from there. Its a shame because it's been exported globally. In some parts of Africa TNs are on daily. One lady I spoke to believed Spanish men treat their women badly. She had never met one in person, only what she saw on tv. I had to explain they were only stories. She couldn't believe maltreating a woman made for a good story. welllll..what could I say?

Hanna
 

In AMF Christina retained control of her inheritance despite being blind and Federico couldn't dissipate her money. Raquela (the maid) lost her illusions about him long before although she was still out to protect herself. She was still a bad mother to Maria del Carmen.

Carlos Manuel (Mateo) in that story was unaware of Debora Falcon's duplicity but that was because she followed him out of the country and there wasn't a stew of hot bubbling gossip around that he closed his mind to.

Got a long list of comparisons of those two and I'm not even caught up to you guys.
 

Urban: Since I started watching TN's this has been the thing that has disturbed me the most. I find extremely difficult to watch and I don't feel like in most cases the anvils come down very hard.
 

Hi Urban and thanks for the topic.
The main question, I believe, is - Are these themes of machismo presented in a positive, accepting light or a negative, disapproving one?

Denise
 

I am never sure about how they are perceived in the dramas. The comedies clearly make fun of machismo, especially when there are women on the writing team.

BTW, in AMF the Simona character dropped out of the election after the murder of her son, who was a child in that version. Federico became mayor. His hit man was not a major supporting character in the same way that Lucio is in QTPD and it was a struggle for me to remember the character's name. Lucio's troubled conscience (or what's left of one) is more interesting and probably was written not just to accommodate the talents of this actor but to help fill more capitulos (AMF was only 136 episodes long).

I am losing respect for Liliana Abud -- who was also on the AMF writing team -- over the illogical prologue to this story. The casting director was also not at the top of his/her game in casting Sergio Goyri if we are truly meant to believe that any woman would find Fausto desirable. He would have been back when AMF was produced, but his smoking has kept him from aging well.

However, if we are meant to think Macaria is seriously demented then Sabine Moussier was the perfect choice for this role.

No casting errors in LSDP that I've found yet.
 

I'm not watching any of the tns you mentioned (and you just made me glad I'm not)
but I have a real problem w/the sexism & misogyny in Tierra de Reys

The most infuriating part of the sexism in this show is that the most guilty characters are women! Whether its a female character saying that she has to have a man running the ranch that *she* owns because no one will respect a woman in that position, or one of the younger female characters acting like they think of themselves as property, it is driving me nuts.
I think its as bad and damaging as the more obvious types of misogyny like violence against women which this show also has and hasn't resolved yet. (I'm still hoping)

This show is set in 21st century Houston fer gosh sakes
 

I find it very hard to believe that the macho attitude is as prevalent in Mexico as it is in telenovelas. Certainly there is some of it, just as there is here. But maybe people just watch these shows the same way that we watch reality shows: with a giant grain of salt.

But it is really nice to see a higher quality show that allows for more variety in relationships, and gets that women are more than just baby-makers and maids. Even housewives home with kids deserve more respect from their husbands than these shows imply they are owed.

Kelly
 

I only saw the first two or three episodes of TdR and that only because I saw two previous versions of that story. The idea of having a male figurehead running a ranch in the 21st century is laughable to me, but then in Texas there are a lot of outdated attitudes that would never fly in New York or California.
 

I just can't comment on these subjects of chauvinism, machismo, and rape. Too disgusting.
I don't think the overkill of these subjects is totally realistic.

Seems more like the times years and years ago when I lived in Mexico, and even way back then, women were making progress.

And I don't agree that Televisa is portraying these subjects for other audiences.

I wish we had a Latina woman, or more, comment on the realism of these topics.
 

I have been watching Tierra de Reyes and I just kind of laugh off the sexism. The girls are young and stupid and if you've seen college age girls today - well, they are (mostly) young and stupid. Today's "feminism" doesn't care about the value of a woman's intellect, talent, expertise, spirituality or experience. Today's "feminists" are only concerned about what happens from the waist down. Don't believe me? You haven't been paying attention.

Cayatana wants Leonardo running the ranch because she's got the hots for him. It's not that she or Andrea don't have the ability to run the ranch. She wants Leonardo around for herself, otherwise she should have kicked his butt to the curb when Sofia divorced him.

What concerns me most about TdR is the classism. None of the employees stand up for themselves and they allow their employers to call them peons. This may be what happens in Mexico, but this show is supposed to take place in the US. No self-respecting American would ever put up with that crap.

 

I have difficulty with patriarchal, feudalistic indoctrination in 2015, period. I have traveled extensively, I of asian ancestry (though raised in the US) and see it perpetuated irrationally. I understand if it a period piece but bristle frequently, however, I tire easily. I haven't watched Que Te Perdone Dios because of Sergio Goyri (I believe he believes he's gods gift to women and therefore entitled to a young chic buffet on screen) and knew he is cast for what he represents.

I bailed on Amores Con Trampa, though promoted as comedic, but cannot stomach the disrespect Facundo shows his wife and mother of his children and while surfing in last night saw it hasn't changed. Almost as distasteful is her acquiescence after a browbeating.

I see these things in real life all too frequently, the grabby entitled male, the glee a male child brings over a female, the apologetic parents of the ner-do-well boy a product of their own and the community's excuses. Makes me want to vomit when under the surface the women run the businesses, hold the money, feed the people and the protector of face.

 

Tofie, I've heard about Asian families catering to the boys, and I know of one case where the sister is still bitter over it years later.

Here in the U.S., many religions promote the man being head of the household and leader of the family. You don't see women holding leadership positions in those religions either, which really irks me. I had to laugh (inside) when a coworker claimed that her husband was the head of the household, although she was the one holding down a job and paying the bills.
 

Today's "feminists"? Wow. I guess I must be a feminist and not a "feminist."
 

I'd probably dare to think that most cities in Mexico have now evolved from the thought that a woman's worth is only determined by her husband and that she belongs only in the household, but you will still find people who think so in each of them. Therefore, when Telenovelas take place in larger cities, I'm willing to believe a couple of characters might thimk that way but it would be ridiculous if everybody was depicted like that.

The smaller towns vary, which is why Televisa likes to use them, since they can appeal to the thought that such kind of place would have those views. With my current job I've been able to travel a little bit here and have visited some towns in which time goes slower than usual, where there's no internet, no phone signal and sometimes even no radio signal. The life in those towns is different, there are community leaders instead of mayors and women are not allowed to participate in assemblies, they aren't allowed to study beyond primary school and, sometimes, they are seen as commodities. The thing with Televisa shows is that these towns are usually very different in how they look than the towns they depict on tv. These towns look forgotten, alone, the houses are sometimes dispersed, the access is difficult and the population is usually small and decreasing.

Televisa likes to use beautiful towns that are much more city like, with beautiful locations but where they'd be able to find a hotel for their actors, electricity for their equipments and beautiful colonial buildings for their scenery. In these kinds of towns women would be able to find some positions of power, being a single mother wouldn't be as much of an issue and, while there'd be conservative ideas, being a woman wouldn't represent living badly. Sure there will be people who'd think women are worth less but I think the depiction would have to depend on the age of the characters, their economic position and their level of education. Younger generations would have new ideas and those who are able to travel or who enjoyed a good education wouldn't see women that way.

That said, I don't think that we have achieved full equality yet between the genders, not just in Mexico, but in the world in general, even in some advanced economies. So I do think there are certain elements of sexism even in the cities, like the access to positions of power, the wage gap and the general view of women's actions when compared to those of men.

Jarocha


 

I bailed on all of them because of the sexism and unpunished rapes. I know rape is a huge problem worldwide but I hate the rather cavalier stance that most novels take in dealing with it. And i hate it being used as nothing more than a cheap plot device.

Jarocha is right we haven't achieved anything near equality which is frustrating to me. I also find it so strange that novelas show so little respect for women when there are at least three South American countries with female presidents something that has never happen in the US.
 

xlnt - ITA about the classist thing - that bugs me too but I was just focusing on the sexism this time-
I'd agree w/you about Cayetana just wanting Leo there 'cause she wants him, except there was this whole plot where Leo was sabotaging Andrea when she was running the place and Cayetana actually told her daughter that they needed a man to run the place 'cause no-one would respect or work w/a woman.

As for college age girls, if everything they see on tv and elsewhere is reinforcing that feminism is just from the waist down, how are they supposed to know better?
 

Don't know how off-topic this is, but I thought of some of this stuff this afternoon while attending the worldwide Met Opera broadcast of Cavalleria Rusticana / Pagliacci, opera's most popular double feature. The sexism in both works is scary.

To this day nobody has explained why Santuzza was excommunicated. If it was for fornication or pregnancy out of wedlock, why wasn't Turridu excommunicated as well, since everybody in that town knows everybody else's business?

Doesn't that feel like these novelas?

BTW, if you can get to the encore presentation of this (on Wednesday in most places) do so. It's fantastic!
 

Been thinking about this a lot today and I have to say that the more I think about it, the more I am offended by the prota getting a degree and never using it (see Diva's comment.)

The overt misogyny and sexism is bad. I'm not denying that, but the subtle sexism of taking the time to show a prota getting a degree and then just going after the boy and walking down the aisle is somehow worse for me.

But for the love don't ask me to articulate why I feel this way. Lol.
 

Sara: It feels condescending. The writers acknowledge that times have changed by letting her study but at the same time they refuse to let the leading female character stand on her own.

I have to say, not all novelas are like this. In Cadena 3 the female leads are usually career driven, but those aren't being exported. It's interesting how that network makes choices that appeal to its audience but who knows if they would to a wider audience. A big appeal of Televisa's telenovelas are their familiarity and their tradidional values make them an easier sell around the world.

Jarocha
 

Anyone got the Quiero Amarte page put up for this week?


 

Seriously, Steve? Do you even pay attention?

1. Anita does the Quiero Amarte page. Not just "anybody."

2. It's standard courtesy here to NEVER ask about recaps and when they are coming up.

3. This has NOTHING to do with Urban Anthropologist's post. If you want to know when the Quiero Amarte post is going up, ask over there.
 

re Sara & Jarocha's comments about the female protas getting a degree & then not using it - I once read an article (don't remember where, sorry) by a woman who said people were always asking why she bothered to get a postgrad degree if she was just going to be a stay at home mom, and she made a great case that the degree and time she had spent studying in college made her a better mom and gave her more to draw upon to teach her children. She said she felt that none of that work was wasted because it made her a more well rounded person and she felt more prepared for life in general because of all of her experiences.
After reading her perspective I was totally convinced that college is an asset no matter whether you use it in a career or as a mother.
 

In real life sure. But from a storytelling point of view it just seems ridiculous to include it in the novela if it serves no propose.
 

Also being a good mom is a challenging enough job that maybe they should offer college degrees in that.
 

Sara our comments crossed but yeah I see your point of view - maybe they just want us to know she's sophisticated or educated or maybe its a status thing as lower class people don't complete college as often
 

Another reason why I enjoyed Amor Bravio so much-- we actually saw the heroine working, in a very male world, and in a typically male field.
 

Well, Mexico and most of Latin America have public Universities with very low cost for the students so having a degree doesn't mean you are rich (although still staying in school is much harder for the poor). That's another thing with novelas, it seems like the writers forget that UNAM charges around 10 pesos per semester and that other public schools are also available, so the money barrier makes it impossible for many leads to acquire an education when in real life they'd have the chance if they worked hard to get it.

Why not for once show the realistic side of getting a degree? Show me a lead that comes from a low income home, who's family tries to send her money each month, who lives in a "pensión para señoritas" with other female college students, who works half time to pay for her living expenses because the money sent from home is not enough and who goes to public school with other kids her age and who's main struggles after finnishing is finding a job that corresponds to her degree because the job market is tough and not much networking can be done in a public University from a heavily classist country.

Jarocha


 

I would watch that show, Jarocha!
 

Alright, this is off-topic, but I wanted to put it where everyone could see. Univision just confirmed prime time airings of both "El Color de la Pasion" AND "Yo no Creo en los Hombres" in 2015!
 

Rain
Thanks for the heads up and thanks for posting the news here, because I don't know how anyone would know how or where to go on the Sidebar.

I think a good many viewers really liked YNCELH, so I will definitely watch that one, but need convincing to watch ECDLP.

 

I agree with all the sexism in QPD , there have been a total of four rapes and they dont seem to be punished enough as the writers love the despicable Fausto very much. Now he is a changed man they say but who could believe the Devil's strings arent any bigger!
The writers seem to love filming 50 Shades of Fausto I suppose.

One of the most frustrating stories in QPD to watch is the Marc and Violeta story , it seems women are not appropriate for politics and stuff in the show.


I like La Sombra much more, it has sexism but there is much more effect there. Atleast there is some degree of respect for women there cause Ald can also give her enemies Hell! Lisset as Adelina is also freaking amazing ,she plays mercy on no one but still plays the perfect supporting element for our heroes.
 

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
 

Steve B, your comment is in poor taste, especially given the topic of discussion.
 

Offensive comment deleted. This is something I will be diligent about in future.
 

The one thing i hate the most is that they"re trying desperately to great villians into some mindless psychos. One of the greatest examples was Pedro Medina from Robo , he was otherwise amazingly potrayed by Sergio Sendel but his script was just awful. He was more like "Make your enemies day even worser" and " Beat this woman up , later flip this table in rage" . He was literarly Robo"s Joker but even The Joker had better writing. He was literally just a violent robot.

I never watched Amor Real but i suppose his evil predecessor was more interesting to watch on screen
 

they"re trying desperately to turn great villians into some mindless ,tasteless psychos*
 

Ok, I sincerely thought I was the only person who was noticing this shit. Did anyone else see Sergio Goyri on Sal y Pimienta last week? That bastard is def drinking the Kool-Aid, and I'm glad Jomari called him out.