Caray, Caray!

Thank you for posting this :)
 

Urban, thank you for this interesting comparison between the two shows.
While I like this show with its never-ending array of guest stars, I guess a lawyer in me wishes for a greater accuracy in the portrayal of legal issues.
It bothers me that for the sake of the plot and in order to showcase certain characters and accommodate the plot laws, criminal procedure and case management in general are often inaccurately portrayed and sometimes are outright ridiculously far from what happens in real legal practice.
I was especially bothered with an episode where Roberto actually acted as a prosecutor in a case against the man that shot Leonardo. In real life, Roberto would have never been able to prosecute the shooter since in Mexico, as in almost anywhere in the world, this is the job of a prosecutor (fiscal).Moreover, in a case where a prosecutor is faced with a conflict of interests (as it was the case here, Roberto being a friend of the victim), he should recuse himself since there is no way he can act with impartiality. Furthermore, any competent defense lawyer would have asked the judge to recuse a prosecutor in such circumstance.
But I guess they needed to showcase Roberto, so they decided to sacrifice any verisimilitude to the real law practice.
Irene

 

Thanks, Urban. I was a big fan of the early years of L.A. Law. It had a mix of drama and comedy I liked. Michael Kuzak was such a romantic. Always doing something special to woo Grace Van Owen. I remember a proposal in a gorilla suit. With Ricardo and Alejandra it's much more mutual.
 

I lost track of L.A. Law after it jumped the shark in its original run. I don't even remember why certain actors left the series.

Legal verisimilitude is deficient in virtually any series about lawyers. When IMDb had message boards there were lots of comments about this. Arnie Becker fooled around with enough of his clients to deserve disbarment. The legal shortcutting in every series would never fly and I'm also sure that the action in a real trial is nowhere near as interesting as the TV version. I had jury duty two weeks ago but the case my group was called for was settled while we were waiting to enter the courtroom. I got my $40 check yesterday... for half a day's "work."
 

I suppose nobody would watch the series if all the aspects of the law were accurately portrayed, since most of the time spent by the lawyers would be dedicated to drafting legal documents, the majority of the cases terribly boring and/or settled out of court, the lawyers would sometimes lose case after case, the trial cases would last for months and, in some countries, years and lawyers would be boringly dressed in appropriate clothing when appearing before a judge.

Irene
 

I'm not watching Amar sin Ley, but your comparison with LA Law struck me and I looked at all the pictures. I enjoyed LA Law, especially Jimmy Smits' character. I STILL have a big crush on Jimmy and saw him also in NYPD Blue (cried when he died on the show); Sons of Anarchy and even as a murderer in Dexter.

His top two sexiest roles, for me, were in NYPD Blue and the movie The Old Gringo, where they gave him some dark makeup to make him look like a Mexican revolutionary.
 

I was in love with him on L.A. Law. Alas, Victor had some pretty wacky females in his life in the first season.

Give PASL a chance. It's good even if it doesn't yet have appropriate comic relief yet.
 

THANK you for that wonderful comparison and with photos no less!!! What a great idea,
Can someone tell me if its my DVR not working or was there NO recording for the show tonight,-Friday?
 

There was no episode this evening, so you will see the fallout from last night's episode on Monday.
 

Urban--
You have outdone yourself (as if that is possible). What a clever notion to juxtapose these two shows, even when PASL is in its early days. It's amazing how closely the characters resemble each other.

I was also an L.A. Law fan the first few years. For me, it jumped the shark when they all stood around in the uni-sex bathroom discussing their turds.

Novelera: I've been in love with Jimmy Smits forever, too. I enjoyed him on West Wing. You should check the movie, The Jane Austen Book Club with him as Amy Brenneman's cheating husband (but he's a good person...) and a short-lived series Outlaw (available on DVD). In it he's a former (state) Supreme Court Judge who returns to private practice--and is a bit unorthodox. He also likes to gamble. Too bad it was cut off the air after not even finishing a single season.
 

Oh, Irene--You encapsulated so well the life of a run-of-the-mill attorney in a middle of the road firm. The last thing any of them want to do is go to trial. A firm can only support one or two show-boaters who can out-perform his/her opponent and impress a jury.
 

Just realized that the turd scene was from Ally McBeal----how things get flushed together. Sorry for the mis-attribution.
 

David Kelley wrote for both series, so probably an easy mistake.

I didn't make it through a single episode of Ally McBeal. Calista Flockhart got on my last nerve with her anorexia and the micro-miniskirts. If I were a judge I would send her home to change into something suitable for court.
 

Anita, I totally agree with you about the limited amount of trial-worthy attorneys per law firm. Also,trials are expensive and unpredictable, and even more so with the jury system in place and it is often too risky and too expensive to take a case to trial even by the best attorneys.

I wish PASL would also deal with more practical aspects of running a legal practice such as decisions about costs versus benefits of taking specific cases on; settlement versus going to trial; lawyers not getting enough billable hours (too much pro bono etc...) and how it is dealt with etc...

Also, I think I would like to see now and then a fruitful collaboration with other law firms regarding specific cases(for example, to have a case concerning patents or intellectual property outsourced to some quirky attorney from another law firm). It would be interesting to see some really esoteric legal specializations (maritime law, immigration law, human rights cases, sports law, dispute resolution...the list is endless and often the cases could be very entertaining) being practiced by an array of different lawyers, every now and then.

As an aside, I read somewhere that sinkhole law is practiced in a part of Texas where sinkholes are common and would love to be a fly on the wall for a day in that law practice.

I would also like to see Vega and associates lawyers lose their cases from time to time, it is so unrealistic for them to win every single case. I think so far, apart from part of Olivia's case concerning increase of child support(which was dealt with off screen), this law firm has a 100 percent win rate, which is absurd.

Irene


 

I don't think MacKenzie-Brackman won all their cases in 172 episodes so the lawyers at Vega might not; we're still early in the game. The original to PASL had 131 episodes and is getting a sequel so there is room for lots more.

The first loss should be Leticia's. I can't imagine her being effective in a courtroom.
 

BTW, while browsing Youtube I found two episodes of the Italian series Donne Assassine. The one I watched seemed to copy the original Argentine format.
 

I actually think that Leticia should be quite effective in a courtroom. She is a take no prisoners, walk on corpses kind of attorney, which is quite a useful quality for a litigator. I peg her as someone that loves the courtroom action, but hates all the boring prep work, paperwork of any kind and actually dealing with clients.
I predict that she will use all means necessary to win her cases, ethics and propriety be damned, will be quite successful but will clash constantly will the goody two shoes Olivia about the right way to practice law.
I also bet that she will be the one to litigate while wearing enticing mini dresses or revealing tops.

Irene
 

Thanks for this superbly presented, very interesting comparison. I never watched LA Law (but I too had a crush on Jimmy Smits) but you certainly make your case UA with your comparisons.

Although I understand the desire to make our telenovela more "realistic" (just as cops I know gripe about the unreality of police shows), realism would mean tedium and we watch these shows precisely to escape the tedium of our daily lives.

Thanks UA for another interesting weekend discussion. I love March Madness but even I need a break!
 

Irene, Leticia's lack of empathy would show too obviously. She would definitely dress inappropriately for a trial on the assumption that it would be effective but since there are no jury trials in Mexico this could only be effective if she is looking to entice a judge.

Which we are all surprised she isn't already doing because it would have more potential for her to sleep her way to advancement than doing so with Benjamin.

I can see that she doesn't like the tedious prep work, but I'm sure that if you do that sloppily you will have difficulty making your case.
 

Urban, maybe she already tried but Benjamin is the only one to fall for her.
I think she would grudgingly do all the prep work while cursing under her breath and feeling unappreciated.

I am eagerly waiting to see her litigate, this should be interesting.

Also would like to see Alonso in action. Do we know if he still take cases? Because so far he contributed almost nothing to the plot, apart from hiring Alejandra and pissing off Leticia in the process.

Irene

 

Judy B, you are absolutely right, sometimes law practice is more boring than watching a paint dry and surely accurately rendering the mundane and the boring would tank a telenovela (imagine seven episodes dedicated to Olivia doing research on pertinent labor law or an entire episode of a judge reading his 60 pages decision in a custody case, including 20 pages of jurisprudence and 50 foot notes).

I am all for skipping the boring and condensing the long and tedious, but it makes me want to throw something at the screen when basic legal concepts are grossly distorted and wrongly portrayed for no valid reason.I expect at least some verisimilitude from a show about lawyers.

P.S : I also was in love with Jimmy Smits at certain point in my life. I recently saw him on "How to get away with Murder" as a depressed and brooding psychologist. There was a very interesting dynamic between him and the always great Viola Davis.

Irene
 

I wonder if we can expect PASL to ultimately include a counterpart for Benny Stolwicz or somebody's embarrassing unknown family members. Douglas discovered two half-brothers he knew nothing about before and his wife cheated on him with both of them. it was both funny and cringe-worthy at the same time.
 

I am all for embarrassing family members and (very moderate amount of) comic relief but I beg telenovela gods -no more cheating. We have way more than enough cheating with Gustavo, Elena, Carlos, Anna Maria and Benjamin.

Irene
 

Irene--If you are including Carlos (nearly married), surely you would want to include Letty (shagging a married man).
 

Anita, I hesitated whether to include Letty but then decided against it. She is single, so she is not cheating, only Benjamin does. For the same reason I did not include Milena.
But it's true that they both facilitated cheating by their bedmates, so basically out of the main cast of 13, 7 are proven to be either cheaters or cheating facilitators. That's a lot of unfaithfulness for mere 14 episodes! And that's only what we know so far. We know nothing about Alonso, but maybe he is a cheater too. And I almost included Roberto, since he is so promiscuous that it wouldn't be surprising for him to have relationships with several women at one time (although maybe he is more of a one night stand kind of guy, unless it's Victoria).

Irene



 

Since there appears to be intermittent comments re: differing legal systems, i thought it might be helpful to post the following- -, see description below my comment.
IMHO, I think the lesser legal educational requirements plus lack of juries in Mexico results in some significant differences. Forget about lack of realism- - Personally, i dont think this is about a lack of realism but rather we are watching a very different process and definitely different expectations. What i wonder about more than differences in our legal system is —. Is there really still that high a percentage of CHEATERS in Mexico now-a-days?? Is it really notably higher there than here? I know their culture was always known for that but i thought things had changed ( gotten better) over the decades?? Some folks says American males are just as guilty but its more private. How can that be in the age of cell phones?

DIFFERENCES in legal education
In the U.S. educational system, students only pursue legal degrees after first obtaining a four-year undergraduate degree (bachelor’s degree) in any non-legal topic of their choosing from a college or university. Afterward, they attend three-year programs at law schools in order to obtain a Juris Doctor (J.D.) degree. Once they have graduated, they then sit for the bar exam in a particular state and obtain a license to practice law.
In contrast, a Mexican attorney can obtain a law degree (a Licenciatura En Derecho, or LED) after a five-year undergraduate program, and does not need to take a bar exam afterward in order to become licensed to practice law. Instead, upon registering as an LED graduate, a Mexican attorney may then become a licensed legal practitioner.
LITIGATION:
In Mexico, a judge leads and regulates the course of litigation, investigating facts, examining witnesses and appointing experts. In the United States, on the other hand, attorneys for the plaintiff or defendant may handle these tasks. Indeed, facts are learned through an attorney-led process called “discovery,” in which the attorneys for the plaintiff and defendant ask questions and request materials from one another — this process is overseen, however, by a judge. Mexican attorneys still counsel clients on matters related to the litigation, of course, and will also prepare pleadings and related documents. In addition, in the U.S., there may also be a jury (a panel of 6-12 citizens, chosen at random) present in a U.S. legal trial to determine facts and make ultimate judgments in the case. Mexican proceedings do not follow this tradition.
Carole
 

Anita: Hoping Victoria gets a happy ending.
 

Don't forget Damian and Carolina
Iam so glad that's over.
 

I did not know you had to pay to take the bar exam. My nephew graduated from
Law school, and when my brother told me he had to pay $5,000.00 in Atlanta ga, and then he flew to LA And it was
More there. I was shocked, why do you
Need to pay, and why so freakin much?
Could somebody explain that to me?

I suppose they could have researched
About the law and how it works but it's about Them telling a story, and
They just put enough lawyerly stuff in it about the Law tokeepit interesting. In other Words it's more about their lives than it is the law they that practice. Which would explain why they don't care if they get it right. That would have required some long hours
Of research. And I don't think they're
All that interested anyway. Just dress
Em up make em look lawyerly and)))))))
ACTION)))))).
 

Nina, in many countries, including in the United States, access to practicing legal profession is regulated.The responsibility to regulate the practice of law falls upon a bar association, which is a professional association of lawyers that is responsible for the regulation of the legal profession in it's jurisdiction. It's like a professional guild for lawyers. Membership in a bar association is very often mandatory, i.e a lawyer can't practice law with being admitted to a bar association and in order to be admitted he has to pass a bar exam. Bar associations charge fees from members for services that they provide to them. Therefore, prospective lawyers have to pay the bar associations for taking the bar exam (which they regulate and organize).

As to why it's so expensive, my guess is that it's, on the one hand, to prevent every Mo and Larry to overwhelm the system by taking 10 exams a year when clearly they shouldn't (for that reason there is also a limitation in some countries on the amount of bar exams that can be taken in a specific time frame) and on the other hand, it's simply because they can, since every prospective lawyer has to pass a bar exam and will pay whatever is asked of him. That's why students starting law school are advised to start putting money aside for the bar exam.

As an aside, it is interesting to note that, as per Wikipedia, the term "bar" comes from 16th century England, where a railing used to divided the hall in the Inns of Court, with students occupying the body of the hall and readers or benchers on the other side. Students who officially became lawyers crossed the symbolic physical barrier and were "admitted to the bar".

Irene

 

I also suspect that the fee is to maintain a certain "class" of individual. Back in the early days you needed to come from wealth in order to attend law school because that is also expensive. I don't think there is a scholarship program for law school.

I also wonder whether US laws are so complex that it would be impossible to do this on the undergrad level.
 

Amotelenovelas and Irene--Thank you both for giving us so much information on the legal system in Mexico and how it differs here.

I seem to recall there is another category of lawyer in Mexico that differs from what we call a notary public. A "notario" in Mexico can do a lot more than a US notary--who basically "witnesses" signatures and one can become a notary public easily without a degree. In Mexico, they first have to become attorneys, while yes, they handle paperwork needing signatures, they do a lot more.
 

Thank you Irene. That is very good explanation. Glad I don't have to try
And say that to nobody. I call my nephew the brainiac, cuz he's smart.
Bless his lawyerly heart. Lol.
 

YES Anita! You are right that there is a common linguistic derivation but NOTARY PUBLIC in USA is very different from NOTARIO Publico in Mexico and it is important to know the difference, especially if you are living in Mexico or are a Mexican living in the USA! At one point, I looked into this for someone and I will copy and paste one of explanatory paragraphs from Texas Secry of State site--below:

"Despite sharing a common linguistic derivation, these two titles convey vastly different responsibilities upon their respective officeholders. The differences between Notary Public and Notario Publico are profound; according to Texas law the "literal translation of the phrase ‘Notary Public’ into Spanish is prohibited."i The intent of this legislation is to prevent Spanish speakers from confusing the roles of the Mexican Notario Publico with the limited services offered by the Texas Notary Public."
Copied from link below.
https://www.sos.state.tx.us/statdoc/notariopublicoarticle.shtml

Carole
 

Thank you Urban. I really enjoy your Weekend Discussions.

I would love to have had Alonso as a boss!

I appreciate how they are casting First Actors throughout the telenovela so we can get an appreciation for their acting skills that we are missing so much.